Fuel Lines

Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:40 pm

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It's not "my" list, but I'm sure Mike will take care of your request for
you, RIGHT MIKE!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Kosciusko" <robkoz@alum.mit.edu>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: fuel lines

Mr Wayne O'Shea,
I have been getting about ten emails a day from this Murphy Rebel Builders
List, and I don't even know how my email got added to the list. I am not
building anything. Do you know how to take me off the list, can you do
that? If not, would it be possible for you to forward this email to

someone

who can take me off the list? I'd really appreciate.
Thank you sir,
Rob Kosciusko
My email is robkoz@alum.mit.edu
or robkoz@worldnet.att.net.
I don't know which one of these is on your list.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: fuel lines

Rick, DO NOT run the fuel lines forward and then down (unless you are
running an electric fuel pump)!!!! When low on fuel, with the A/C at a
high
angle of attack, the fuel is being supplied by "siphon" action to the
carb,
as there is no longer any "head" pressure available from the tank. If

you

happen to drop a wing (especially if only running on one tank) the

siphon

will be broken (as the fuel goes away from the inlet) and most likely

you

will be unable to get the siphon going again. The engine will run for a
short while, until the carb bowl and immediate line goes empty, then
you're
a GLIDER! If you run the lines back and then down as shown in the

manual,

the only way you will have fuel problems will be if you hold a VERY

steep

dive for a VERY long time, or if you run the tanks dry!

Just my 2 cents, but of course it is your Rebel, so the choice is ALWAYS
yours!!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard DeCiero" <rsdec1@star.net>
To: "Rebel Builders" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:15 PM
Subject: fuel lines

Hello everyone,
I need some comments on my approach to my proposed fuel line
routing. My plan is to run the main lines along the outside bottom of
the fuselage root ribs (FUS-27 L&R) and then either down the side (the
narrow side facing the center of the A/C) or down the back(the wide

side

facing the rear of the A/C) of the front door post uprights(FUS-4). I
could also run the first portion inside along the bottom of the root
ribs and jump inside and down the door post. When the line gets to the
main square tubes it will run downhill to the center of the A/C. At

this

point I will tee the two lines (one from each side) together and also
have a sump drain there. Now one line will run up to the firewall and
gascolator. These lines could be enclosed in a cover arrangement to
avoid damage. Stainless steel line is also an option for these. One
other possibility for line material (5/16" i.d.) is high pressure

teflon

hose that is enclosed in a braided stainless steel jacket. The braided
hose assemblies are about $30.00 each for a six foot long

hose.Available

from McMacter-Carr. These hoses are typically used for oil pressure
lines and other high pressure applications.
Feel free to bombard me will all of your comments.
Thanks,
Rick D.

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Richard DeCiero · Post by **Richard DeCiero** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:40 pm

Wayne, Bob,Phil, Dave,Scott,Bruce,Walter and anyone else that responded
or is interested,
Thank you for your feedback on the fuel line route issue. I hope
others will also benefit from your insight. As I mentioned in an
archived response, I have abandoned the forward routing and will use a
more conventional rearward route. One comment by the factory was that if
you bury a fuel line too deep in the fuse and it ruptures due to water
freezing in the line, you will have a hard time repairing it. Apparently
that comment was directly related to one builders experience.
Some early Rebels used header tanks due to poor fuel flow. However,
that problem may have been caused by venting issues. A fuel pump is
probably a good idea especially if you plan to use auto gas. The pump
pressure would help prevent vapor lock that has been associated with the
use of auto fuel due to it's different vapor pressure. I'm not sure if
you can simply tee in a bypass around the fuel pump. Could the pump be
set up for use only during takeoff and landing?
Good luck,
Rick D.

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Ralph Baker · Post by **Ralph Baker** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:16 am

I had already decided to use Teflon tubing for sight guages before the
latest round of discussion. McMaster - Carr in Atlanta catalog striped
Teflon TFE tubing with a single stripe. "....single stripe can be seen
from any angle, while the fluid in the translucent tube remains visible".
As the saying goes, I'm going to pay my money and take my chances. Five
foot minimum and in the range of US$1.00 per foot. May need to put a white
background to enhance visibility but that is easy with a section of white
Chlorox bottle. McMaster can be reached at:
email atl.sales@mcmaster.com
phone 404-346-7000
fax 404-349-9091

Their 3000 page catalog is worth whatever they want for it now.
Ralph Baker
Elite serial 611E

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C&P Kucera · Post by **C&P Kucera** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:16 am

Hi Ralph.

Teflon has a "flow" problem. If it touches anything sharp, it will flow
around it over time. We use teflon insulated wire at work and we are very
carefull keeping it from anything sharp. NASA don't allow us to use it at
all.
Sharp barb fittings could be a problem in the case of tubing. I can try to
find out more about it but perhaps other builders know more.
I just thought I'd bring it up,just in case.

Paul Kucera

Ontario Rebel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@ftc-i.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 9:36 PM
Subject: Fuel lines

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I had already decided to use Teflon tubing for sight guages before the
latest round of discussion. McMaster - Carr in Atlanta catalog striped
Teflon TFE tubing with a single stripe. "....single stripe can be seen
from any angle, while the fluid in the translucent tube remains visible".
As the saying goes, I'm going to pay my money and take my chances. Five
foot minimum and in the range of US$1.00 per foot. May need to put a

white

background to enhance visibility but that is easy with a section of white
Chlorox bottle. McMaster can be reached at:
email atl.sales@mcmaster.com
phone 404-346-7000
fax 404-349-9091

Their 3000 page catalog is worth whatever they want for it now.
Ralph Baker
Elite serial 611E

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Murray Cherkas · Post by **Murray Cherkas** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:24 am

Interesting to hear about your fuel problems. Was especially good to know
that alls well that ends well.As I am about to install my fuel lines would
someone be kind enough to comment on fuel line routing?

Eg. Install one outlet fitting at top front of root rib,2 outlet fittings at
bottom front of root rib and one at bottom rear of root rib.Use the top
front fitting and second one from front for sight gauge with a tee for the
vent as well on the top fitting.Cross vent tanks with one snorkell pointing
into wind located in fairing between wing root rib and fuselodge.Connect
bottom front fitting and rear bottom fitting together, from rear fitting
route gas line behind door bulhead then foreward under door opening to
firewall, place tee in fittings then through firewall to gascolator.

With this arrangement I am also thinking of putting a tee in the line at low
point behind the door from which I will run a drain as this is the low point
in the fuel line.The drain line will be located in the corner wrap and
through the floor. I think a ball valve located behind the tee would be the
easiest way to drain fuel.There would be a drain set up on each side.

Would connecting the front bottom outlet fitting to the system result in
sucking air if low on fuel and in a nose down attitude.If not connected to
the front fitting then you would run out of fuel with 5+- gal.fuel in tank.

Please comment on the above routing.

All comments greatly apprciated.

Murray Cherkas
REBEL 505

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klehman · Post by **klehman** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:24 am

Another option is to move the bottom sight tube outlet aft so that it
reads more accurately when on the ground. There is an existing cutout in
the bulkhead that the sight tube can go through.
Ken

Murray Cherkas wrote:

Interesting to hear about your fuel problems. Was especially good to know
that alls well that ends well.As I am about to install my fuel lines would
someone be kind enough to comment on fuel line routing?

Eg. Install one outlet fitting at top front of root rib,2 outlet fittings at
bottom front of root rib and one at bottom rear of root rib.Use the top
front fitting and second one from front for sight gauge with a tee for the
vent as well on the top fitting.Cross vent tanks with one snorkell pointing
into wind located in fairing between wing root rib and fuselodge.Connect
bottom front fitting and rear bottom fitting together, from rear fitting
route gas line behind door bulhead then foreward under door opening to
firewall, place tee in fittings then through firewall to gascolator.

With this arrangement I am also thinking of putting a tee in the line at low
point behind the door from which I will run a drain as this is the low point
in the fuel line.The drain line will be located in the corner wrap and
through the floor. I think a ball valve located behind the tee would be the
easiest way to drain fuel.There would be a drain set up on each side.

Would connecting the front bottom outlet fitting to the system result in
sucking air if low on fuel and in a nose down attitude.If not connected to
the front fitting then you would run out of fuel with 5+- gal.fuel in tank.

Please comment on the above routing.

All comments greatly apprciated.

Murray Cherkas
REBEL 505

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Mike Betti · Post by **Mike Betti** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:22 pm

Hi builders,
Looking at the fuel system. I don't care for the use of plastic type lines and fittings the manual calls for. Has anyone used all aluminum tubing and fittings to accomplish this? How about a better site glass, like maybe real glass mounted in some sort of aluminum frame? Has anyone used a bottom sump, where the two tanks drain to the sump and the engine takes it's fuel from it?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:22 pm

At 06:13 PM 2/12/2006 -0600, you wrote:

Hi builders,
Looking at the fuel system. I don't care for the use of plastic type lines

and fittings the manual calls for. Has anyone used all aluminum tubing and
fittings to accomplish this? How about a better site glass, like maybe real
glass mounted in some sort of aluminum frame? Has anyone used a bottom
sump, where the two tanks drain to the sump and the engine takes it's fuel
from it?

Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E

Hi Mike I've changed most of my cross-vent system and fuel guage fittings
to aluminum. If I were to do it again I'd use all aluminum for the fuel
feed as well. I don't really like having a rubber hose buried under a
corner wrap where I can't get at it. I don't see any advantage to having a
bottom sump. In a gravity feed system you'd just end up with a whole bunch
more unusable fuel wouldn't you? I think Wag Areo sells a glass sight guage
like you describe. We have lots of them on hydraulic tanks at my work. My
experience is that the glass gets discoloured over time and it gets very
hard to read the guage. It's not hard to change the plastic sight guage
every year or so. Just fly to low fuel then with the valves open jack up
one side of the plane. Go have a coffee and when you get back all the fuel
will have drained into the low wing. change that line jack up the other
side and repeat.
Drew

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mbetti · Post by **mbetti** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:22 pm

Thanks Drew,
Do you have any pics of your vent fitting arrangement or a description or fittings used? I'll look in wag areo tonight. Hydraulic tanks is where I guess I got the idea.
Mike

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:06:02 -0500, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:

At 06:13 PM 2/12/2006 -0600, you wrote:
Hi builders,
Looking at the fuel system. I don't care for the use of plastic type lines
and fittings the manual calls for. Has anyone used all aluminum tubing and
fittings to accomplish this? How about a better site glass, like maybe real
glass mounted in some sort of aluminum frame? Has anyone used a bottom
sump, where the two tanks drain to the sump and the engine takes it's fuel
from it?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
Hi Mike I've changed most of my cross-vent system and fuel guage fittings
to aluminum. If I were to do it again I'd use all aluminum for the fuel
feed as well. I don't really like having a rubber hose buried under a
corner wrap where I can't get at it. I don't see any advantage to having a
bottom sump. In a gravity feed system you'd just end up with a whole bunch
more unusable fuel wouldn't you? I think Wag Areo sells a glass sight guage
like you describe. We have lots of them on hydraulic tanks at my work. My
experience is that the glass gets discoloured over time and it gets very
hard to read the guage. It's not hard to change the plastic sight guage
every year or so. Just fly to low fuel then with the valves open jack up
one side of the plane. Go have a coffee and when you get back all the fuel
will have drained into the low wing. change that line jack up the other
side and repeat.
Drew

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Bob Andrews · Post by **Bob Andrews** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:22 pm

Hi Mike,

I agree ... don't like the plastic tubes used inside the fuselage to vent
the two wing tanks. I plan to hard line the cross vent plumbing, and find
some rigid transparent sight tubes to use for the two fuel qty indicators.

Bob, 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
mbetti@up.net
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:28 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel lines

Thanks Drew,
Do you have any pics of your vent fitting arrangement or a description or
fittings used? I'll look in wag areo tonight. Hydraulic tanks is where I
guess I got the idea.
Mike

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:06:02 -0500, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:

At 06:13 PM 2/12/2006 -0600, you wrote:
Hi builders,
Looking at the fuel system. I don't care for the use of plastic type lines
and fittings the manual calls for. Has anyone used all aluminum tubing and
fittings to accomplish this? How about a better site glass, like maybe real
glass mounted in some sort of aluminum frame? Has anyone used a bottom
sump, where the two tanks drain to the sump and the engine takes it's fuel
from it?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
Hi Mike I've changed most of my cross-vent system and fuel guage fittings
to aluminum. If I were to do it again I'd use all aluminum for the fuel
feed as well. I don't really like having a rubber hose buried under a
corner wrap where I can't get at it. I don't see any advantage to having a
bottom sump. In a gravity feed system you'd just end up with a whole bunch
more unusable fuel wouldn't you? I think Wag Areo sells a glass sight guage
like you describe. We have lots of them on hydraulic tanks at my work. My
experience is that the glass gets discoloured over time and it gets very
hard to read the guage. It's not hard to change the plastic sight guage
every year or so. Just fly to low fuel then with the valves open jack up
one side of the plane. Go have a coffee and when you get back all the fuel
will have drained into the low wing. change that line jack up the other
side and repeat.
Drew

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Bruce Georgen · Post by **Bruce Georgen** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:22 pm

Hi Mike,

I used alum line from tank to engine carb. Not an issue just a little more planning and time...and piece of mind. I used alum between wing root and tank as well and installed AN fittings for removal. I ran the two tank lines together under the floor behind the seats and put a drain under the fuselage, in addition to the 2 wing tank and the gascolator drain. It was a low spot on wheels (tail dragger) before I went to amphibs.

Running your fuel line to a header tank to feed the engine I did not do. There are both pluses and minuses to a header tank and that is personal preference. I didn't want a gal of fuel in the cabin with me in case of an accident. Bob p might have a story about that too. I have never starved the 0320 of fuel in any flight configuration or low fuel situation.

I did vent the tanks with nitrate line however.

Bruce G

-----Original Message-----

From: Bob Andrews <robert@montanasky.us>
Sent: Feb 13, 2006 9:42 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Fuel lines

Hi Mike,

I agree ... don't like the plastic tubes used inside the fuselage to vent
the two wing tanks. I plan to hard line the cross vent plumbing, and find
some rigid transparent sight tubes to use for the two fuel qty indicators.

Bob, 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
mbetti@up.net
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:28 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel lines

Thanks Drew,
Do you have any pics of your vent fitting arrangement or a description or
fittings used? I'll look in wag areo tonight. Hydraulic tanks is where I
guess I got the idea.
Mike

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:06:02 -0500, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:
At 06:13 PM 2/12/2006 -0600, you wrote:
Hi builders,
Looking at the fuel system. I don't care for the use of plastic type lines
and fittings the manual calls for. Has anyone used all aluminum tubing and
fittings to accomplish this? How about a better site glass, like maybe real
glass mounted in some sort of aluminum frame? Has anyone used a bottom
sump, where the two tanks drain to the sump and the engine takes it's fuel
from it?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
Hi Mike I've changed most of my cross-vent system and fuel guage fittings
to aluminum. If I were to do it again I'd use all aluminum for the fuel
feed as well. I don't really like having a rubber hose buried under a
corner wrap where I can't get at it. I don't see any advantage to having a
bottom sump. In a gravity feed system you'd just end up with a whole bunch
more unusable fuel wouldn't you? I think Wag Areo sells a glass sight guage
like you describe. We have lots of them on hydraulic tanks at my work. My
experience is that the glass gets discoloured over time and it gets very
hard to read the guage. It's not hard to change the plastic sight guage
every year or so. Just fly to low fuel then with the valves open jack up
one side of the plane. Go have a coffee and when you get back all the fuel
will have drained into the low wing. change that line jack up the other
side and repeat.
Drew

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Drew Dalgleish · Post by **Drew Dalgleish** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:22 pm

Thanks Drew,
Do you have any pics of your vent fitting arrangement or a description or

fittings used? I'll look in wag areo tonight. Hydraulic tanks is where I
guess I got the idea.

Mike

Sorry Mike I'm not much for taking pictures. The vent arrangement is all
1/4" aluminum tubing with regular AN flare fittings. A T fitting pointing
up with a short peice of tubing that goes through the wing root fairing and
points into the wind for ram pressure venting. I was lucky enough to find
some scrap peices of tubing at my local FBO that had bubble flares in one
end. I used these at the bottom of my sight guage on the end that the
plastic tubing fits over. It's my opinion that the ram venting tube is
neccessary I flew for a couple years without it and had a couple scares
when manouvering with low fuel if you get a gulp of air in the line the
extra head pressure from the ram vent purges it a lot quicker
Drew

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Jean Poirier · Post by **Jean Poirier** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:22 pm

My two cents....

I have see and I plan to weld a bent tube on the gas caps to vent and
"pressurise" the gas tanks. Your pro/con about that way of venting?

Jean
Rebel 747R

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: Fuel lines

Thanks Drew,
Do you have any pics of your vent fitting arrangement or a description or
fittings used? I'll look in wag areo tonight. Hydraulic tanks is where I
guess I got the idea.
Mike
Sorry Mike I'm not much for taking pictures. The vent arrangement is all
1/4" aluminum tubing with regular AN flare fittings. A T fitting pointing
up with a short peice of tubing that goes through the wing root fairing
and
points into the wind for ram pressure venting. I was lucky enough to find
some scrap peices of tubing at my local FBO that had bubble flares in one
end. I used these at the bottom of my sight guage on the end that the
plastic tubing fits over. It's my opinion that the ram venting tube is
neccessary I flew for a couple years without it and had a couple scares
when manouvering with low fuel if you get a gulp of air in the line the
extra head pressure from the ram vent purges it a lot quicker
Drew

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lawsondj · Post by **lawsondj** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:22 pm

Hi All,

If you find some reasonable sight tube gauges, let me know too.

Thanks,
Jack, SR193

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bob Andrews" <robert@montanasky.us>

Hi Mike,

I agree ... don't like the plastic tubes used inside the fuselage to vent
the two wing tanks. I plan to hard line the cross vent plumbing, and find
some rigid transparent sight tubes to use for the two fuel qty indicators.

Bob, 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
mbetti@up.net
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:28 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel lines

Thanks Drew,
Do you have any pics of your vent fitting arrangement or a description or
fittings used? I'll look in wag areo tonight. Hydraulic tanks is where I
guess I got the idea.
Mike

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:06:02 -0500, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:
At 06:13 PM 2/12/2006 -0600, you wrote:
Hi builders,
Looking at the fuel system. I don't care for the use of plastic type lines
and fittings the manual calls for. Has anyone used all aluminum tubing and
fittings to accomplish this? How about a better site glass, like maybe real
glass mounted in some sort of aluminum frame? Has anyone used a bottom
sump, where the two tanks drain to the sump and the engine takes it's fuel
from it?
Thanks,
Mike Betti
771E
Hi Mike I've changed most of my cross-vent system and fuel guage fittings
to aluminum. If I were to do it again I'd use all aluminum for the fuel
feed as well. I don't really like having a rubber hose buried under a
corner wrap where I can't get at it. I don't see any advantage to having a
bottom sump. In a gravity feed system you'd just end up with a whole bunch
more unusable fuel wouldn't you? I think Wag Areo sells a glass sight guage
like you describe. We have lots of them on hydraulic tanks at my work. My
experience is that the glass gets discoloured over time and it gets very
hard to read the guage. It's not hard to change the plastic sight guage
every year or so. Just fly to low fuel then with the valves open jack up
one side of the plane. Go have a coffee and when you get back all the fuel
will have drained into the low wing. change that line jack up the other
side and repeat.
Drew

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NormIsler · Post by **NormIsler** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:22 pm

Just to ask a "fuelish" question...

Wouldn't a forward facing "ram" vent also admit water to the fuel tank when
flying in rain?

Am I missing something obvious?

Thanks

Norm Isler
Elite 702E

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