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[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Converted from Wildcat! database. (read only)
Walter Klatt

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Walter Klatt » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:39 am

Just thought I would emphasize what Wayne said about the importance of only
having the rear outlets. It seems that this is a popular misconception out
there with some homebuilders, not just Murphy planes, where they think 2
outlets are safer.

I know of another plane where some builders had installed a front outlet as
well, and to make it worse, the engine also had a fuel pump. Well, it didn't
take long for engine outs to occur when tanks were low, and during an
initial steep climb. Needless to say, this was a hard lesson for some.

With the Rebel, you need to also be aware that if you have the tank shut off
valves up top at the rear of the tanks, instead of the bottom, you can
easily get an air block in the lines when switching tanks, if you run one
tank dry in the air and don't use the correct tank switching procedure. More
specifically, if you are running on one tank, let it go dry, close it, then
open the other tank, your engine will quit, guaranteed, every time. I proved
this myself, on the ground, and it is very repeatable.

The correct procedure is to open the other full side first, and when the
engine is confirmed to keep running OK, then the empty tank can be closed.
What happens with the incorrect sequence, is that air is sitting in your
lines below the valves, and if you close your empty one, it can not escape
when the full one is opened.

This is a very important point to understand if you don't want any rude
surprises some day when switching tanks.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:25 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

You would have to stuff the nose VERY hard to unport the fuel fitting even
low on fuel. Double porting also negates the syphon effect the fuel line
would have with just the rear port, as when you get low on fuel as it will
draw air from the front port easier than fuel from the back, especially if
you are running a fuel pump. Even the old style of fuel gauge sight
fitting
tee'd into the main outlet stopped the syphon ability of the tank.
Starting
with an empty tank it would take adding 10 gallons of fuel to the tank....
to get fuel to flow to the carb on FOKM before I changed the site gauge
set
up to a seperate isolated fitting. After moving it fuel flow became almost
instant with the first few gallons added to the tank.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----


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Kim Kimball

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Kim Kimball » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:42 am

I thought some Cessnas had two outlets.

Mike
044SR

----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Date: Friday, February 2, 2007 11:25 am
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Just thought I would emphasize what Wayne said about the
importance of only
having the rear outlets. It seems that this is a popular
misconception out
there with some homebuilders, not just Murphy planes, where they
think 2
outlets are safer.

I know of another plane where some builders had installed a front
outlet as
well, and to make it worse, the engine also had a fuel pump. Well,
it didn't
take long for engine outs to occur when tanks were low, and during an
initial steep climb. Needless to say, this was a hard lesson for some.

With the Rebel, you need to also be aware that if you have the
tank shut off
valves up top at the rear of the tanks, instead of the bottom, you can
easily get an air block in the lines when switching tanks, if you
run one
tank dry in the air and don't use the correct tank switching
procedure. More
specifically, if you are running on one tank, let it go dry, close
it, then
open the other tank, your engine will quit, guaranteed, every
time. I proved
this myself, on the ground, and it is very repeatable.

The correct procedure is to open the other full side first, and
when the
engine is confirmed to keep running OK, then the empty tank can be
closed.What happens with the incorrect sequence, is that air is
sitting in your
lines below the valves, and if you close your empty one, it can
not escape
when the full one is opened.

This is a very important point to understand if you don't want any
rudesurprises some day when switching tanks.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On
Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:25 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

You would have to stuff the nose VERY hard to unport the fuel
fitting even
low on fuel. Double porting also negates the syphon effect the
fuel line
would have with just the rear port, as when you get low on fuel
as it will
draw air from the front port easier than fuel from the back,
especially if
you are running a fuel pump. Even the old style of fuel gauge sight
fitting
tee'd into the main outlet stopped the syphon ability of the tank.
Starting
with an empty tank it would take adding 10 gallons of fuel to
the tank....
to get fuel to flow to the carb on FOKM before I changed the
site gauge
set
up to a seperate isolated fitting. After moving it fuel flow
became almost
instant with the first few gallons added to the tank.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----


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Ken

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Ken » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:42 am

I buy cheap numbered bits both ways. Usually I use 135* split point for
#40 but 118* plain for #30.
Ken

steve whitenect wrote:
I always use 135* split point drills to avoid skating on any light or thin
surfaces and I meant 3/32" as to the best of my short learned brain, the
numbered drills are straight cut. But have been wrong many times before!!

Steve W 637R





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Jesse Jenks

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Jesse Jenks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:42 am

Walter,
I'm planning to use an Andair valve in the floor, and delete the shutoff
valves in the wing root. Do you think the same problem could occur if I run
a tank dry and immediatly switch to the other one instead of going to both?
Thanks.
Jesse
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:19:58 -0800

Just thought I would emphasize what Wayne said about the importance of only
having the rear outlets. It seems that this is a popular misconception out
there with some homebuilders, not just Murphy planes, where they think 2
outlets are safer.

I know of another plane where some builders had installed a front outlet as
well, and to make it worse, the engine also had a fuel pump. Well, it
didn't
take long for engine outs to occur when tanks were low, and during an
initial steep climb. Needless to say, this was a hard lesson for some.

With the Rebel, you need to also be aware that if you have the tank shut
off
valves up top at the rear of the tanks, instead of the bottom, you can
easily get an air block in the lines when switching tanks, if you run one
tank dry in the air and don't use the correct tank switching procedure.
More
specifically, if you are running on one tank, let it go dry, close it, then
open the other tank, your engine will quit, guaranteed, every time. I
proved
this myself, on the ground, and it is very repeatable.

The correct procedure is to open the other full side first, and when the
engine is confirmed to keep running OK, then the empty tank can be closed.
What happens with the incorrect sequence, is that air is sitting in your
lines below the valves, and if you close your empty one, it can not escape
when the full one is opened.

This is a very important point to understand if you don't want any rude
surprises some day when switching tanks.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:25 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

You would have to stuff the nose VERY hard to unport the fuel fitting
even
low on fuel. Double porting also negates the syphon effect the fuel line
would have with just the rear port, as when you get low on fuel as it
will
draw air from the front port easier than fuel from the back, especially
if
you are running a fuel pump. Even the old style of fuel gauge sight
fitting
tee'd into the main outlet stopped the syphon ability of the tank.
Starting
with an empty tank it would take adding 10 gallons of fuel to the
tank....
to get fuel to flow to the carb on FOKM before I changed the site gauge
set
up to a seperate isolated fitting. After moving it fuel flow became
almost
instant with the first few gallons added to the tank.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----


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-----------------------------------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________________
Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy
Awards

Walter Klatt

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Walter Klatt » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:42 am

No, if the valve is on the bottom, the air in the lines will always be able
to escape upwards into the tank. It's the valves on top when closed that
will trap the air.

Another consideration, though, about where to put your tank valves, has to
do with unplanned off airport landing events. It might be preferable to
close your valves up top by your wings prior to the landing attempt, to
avoid fuel in the cabin, should your lines rip between the wings and the
bottom valve. A broken landing gear could do it, especially the old bungee
type, if your fuel lines run along the bottom sides as per the MAM original
instructions.

So there are pros and cons here with both methods.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 10:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank


Walter,
I'm planning to use an Andair valve in the floor, and delete the shutoff
valves in the wing root. Do you think the same problem could occur if I
run
a tank dry and immediatly switch to the other one instead of going to
both?
Thanks.
Jesse
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:19:58 -0800

Just thought I would emphasize what Wayne said about the importance of
only
having the rear outlets. It seems that this is a popular misconception
out
there with some homebuilders, not just Murphy planes, where they think 2
outlets are safer.

I know of another plane where some builders had installed a front outlet
as
well, and to make it worse, the engine also had a fuel pump. Well, it
didn't
take long for engine outs to occur when tanks were low, and during an
initial steep climb. Needless to say, this was a hard lesson for some.

With the Rebel, you need to also be aware that if you have the tank shut
off
valves up top at the rear of the tanks, instead of the bottom, you can
easily get an air block in the lines when switching tanks, if you run one
tank dry in the air and don't use the correct tank switching procedure.
More
specifically, if you are running on one tank, let it go dry, close it,
then
open the other tank, your engine will quit, guaranteed, every time. I
proved
this myself, on the ground, and it is very repeatable.

The correct procedure is to open the other full side first, and when the
engine is confirmed to keep running OK, then the empty tank can be
closed.
What happens with the incorrect sequence, is that air is sitting in your
lines below the valves, and if you close your empty one, it can not
escape
when the full one is opened.

This is a very important point to understand if you don't want any rude
surprises some day when switching tanks.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:25 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

You would have to stuff the nose VERY hard to unport the fuel fitting
even
low on fuel. Double porting also negates the syphon effect the fuel
line
would have with just the rear port, as when you get low on fuel as it
will
draw air from the front port easier than fuel from the back,
especially
if
you are running a fuel pump. Even the old style of fuel gauge sight
fitting
tee'd into the main outlet stopped the syphon ability of the tank.
Starting
with an empty tank it would take adding 10 gallons of fuel to the
tank....
to get fuel to flow to the carb on FOKM before I changed the site
gauge
set
up to a seperate isolated fitting. After moving it fuel flow became
almost
instant with the first few gallons added to the tank.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----


-----------------------------------------------------------------
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username "rebel" password "builder"
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-----------------------------------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________________
Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the
Academy
AwardsR http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007 ... artagline2




-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Mike Kimball

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Mike Kimball » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:42 am

In addition to Bob's reason to retain the fuel shutoff valves in the wing
root I was sure glad to have them when I developed leaks at virtually all of
my flare fittings under the floor (suspect poor quality flare tool). If you
want to do any maintenance on the fuel lines it sure is nice to shut off the
fuel up there. I found some nice bulkhead valves so that the valve is on
the outside of the fuselage with the handle on the inside. I also have the
Andair four position selector valve on the floor between the seats.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 9:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank


Walter,
I'm planning to use an Andair valve in the floor, and delete the shutoff
valves in the wing root. Do you think the same problem could occur if I run
a tank dry and immediatly switch to the other one instead of going to both?
Thanks.
Jesse
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:19:58 -0800

Just thought I would emphasize what Wayne said about the importance of only
having the rear outlets. It seems that this is a popular misconception out
there with some homebuilders, not just Murphy planes, where they think 2
outlets are safer.

I know of another plane where some builders had installed a front outlet as
well, and to make it worse, the engine also had a fuel pump. Well, it
didn't
take long for engine outs to occur when tanks were low, and during an
initial steep climb. Needless to say, this was a hard lesson for some.

With the Rebel, you need to also be aware that if you have the tank shut
off
valves up top at the rear of the tanks, instead of the bottom, you can
easily get an air block in the lines when switching tanks, if you run one
tank dry in the air and don't use the correct tank switching procedure.
More
specifically, if you are running on one tank, let it go dry, close it, then
open the other tank, your engine will quit, guaranteed, every time. I
proved
this myself, on the ground, and it is very repeatable.

The correct procedure is to open the other full side first, and when the
engine is confirmed to keep running OK, then the empty tank can be closed.
What happens with the incorrect sequence, is that air is sitting in your
lines below the valves, and if you close your empty one, it can not escape
when the full one is opened.

This is a very important point to understand if you don't want any rude
surprises some day when switching tanks.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:25 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

You would have to stuff the nose VERY hard to unport the fuel fitting
even
low on fuel. Double porting also negates the syphon effect the fuel line
would have with just the rear port, as when you get low on fuel as it
will
draw air from the front port easier than fuel from the back, especially
if
you are running a fuel pump. Even the old style of fuel gauge sight
fitting
tee'd into the main outlet stopped the syphon ability of the tank.
Starting
with an empty tank it would take adding 10 gallons of fuel to the
tank....
to get fuel to flow to the carb on FOKM before I changed the site gauge
set
up to a seperate isolated fitting. After moving it fuel flow became
almost
instant with the first few gallons added to the tank.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----


-----------------------------------------------------------------
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username "rebel" password "builder"
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-----------------------------------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________________
Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy
AwardsR http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007 ... artagline2




-----------------------------------------------------------------
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username "rebel" password "builder"
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List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






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-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jesse Jenks

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Jesse Jenks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:42 am

Thanks Walter and Mike,
Mike, where did you get the valves you mention?
Jesse

From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 18:01:04 -0900

In addition to Bob's reason to retain the fuel shutoff valves in the wing
root I was sure glad to have them when I developed leaks at virtually all
of
my flare fittings under the floor (suspect poor quality flare tool). If
you
want to do any maintenance on the fuel lines it sure is nice to shut off
the
fuel up there. I found some nice bulkhead valves so that the valve is on
the outside of the fuselage with the handle on the inside. I also have the
Andair four position selector valve on the floor between the seats.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 9:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank


Walter,
I'm planning to use an Andair valve in the floor, and delete the shutoff
valves in the wing root. Do you think the same problem could occur if I run
a tank dry and immediatly switch to the other one instead of going to both?
Thanks.
Jesse
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:19:58 -0800

Just thought I would emphasize what Wayne said about the importance of
only
having the rear outlets. It seems that this is a popular misconception
out
there with some homebuilders, not just Murphy planes, where they think 2
outlets are safer.

I know of another plane where some builders had installed a front outlet
as
well, and to make it worse, the engine also had a fuel pump. Well, it
didn't
take long for engine outs to occur when tanks were low, and during an
initial steep climb. Needless to say, this was a hard lesson for some.

With the Rebel, you need to also be aware that if you have the tank shut
off
valves up top at the rear of the tanks, instead of the bottom, you can
easily get an air block in the lines when switching tanks, if you run one
tank dry in the air and don't use the correct tank switching procedure.
More
specifically, if you are running on one tank, let it go dry, close it,
then
open the other tank, your engine will quit, guaranteed, every time. I
proved
this myself, on the ground, and it is very repeatable.

The correct procedure is to open the other full side first, and when the
engine is confirmed to keep running OK, then the empty tank can be
closed.
What happens with the incorrect sequence, is that air is sitting in your
lines below the valves, and if you close your empty one, it can not
escape
when the full one is opened.

This is a very important point to understand if you don't want any rude
surprises some day when switching tanks.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:25 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

You would have to stuff the nose VERY hard to unport the fuel fitting
even
low on fuel. Double porting also negates the syphon effect the fuel
line
would have with just the rear port, as when you get low on fuel as it
will
draw air from the front port easier than fuel from the back,
especially
if
you are running a fuel pump. Even the old style of fuel gauge sight
fitting
tee'd into the main outlet stopped the syphon ability of the tank.
Starting
with an empty tank it would take adding 10 gallons of fuel to the
tank....
to get fuel to flow to the carb on FOKM before I changed the site
gauge
set
up to a seperate isolated fitting. After moving it fuel flow became
almost
instant with the first few gallons added to the tank.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----


-----------------------------------------------------------------
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username "rebel" password "builder"
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List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________________
Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy
AwardsR http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007 ... artagline2




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Mike Kimball

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Mike Kimball » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:42 am

I knew someone would ask about the fuel valves. I'll look it up and get
back to you. I think you'll like them. The valve handle is probably half
the length of the one's supplied by MAM with the valve pivot in the middle
of the handle instead of on the end and provides a nice, neat installation.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 7:05 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank



Thanks Walter and Mike,
Mike, where did you get the valves you mention?
Jesse

From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 18:01:04 -0900

In addition to Bob's reason to retain the fuel shutoff valves in the wing
root I was sure glad to have them when I developed leaks at virtually all
of
my flare fittings under the floor (suspect poor quality flare tool). If
you
want to do any maintenance on the fuel lines it sure is nice to shut off
the
fuel up there. I found some nice bulkhead valves so that the valve is on
the outside of the fuselage with the handle on the inside. I also have the
Andair four position selector valve on the floor between the seats.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 9:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank


Walter,
I'm planning to use an Andair valve in the floor, and delete the shutoff
valves in the wing root. Do you think the same problem could occur if I run
a tank dry and immediatly switch to the other one instead of going to both?
Thanks.
Jesse
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:19:58 -0800

Just thought I would emphasize what Wayne said about the importance of
only
having the rear outlets. It seems that this is a popular misconception
out
there with some homebuilders, not just Murphy planes, where they think 2
outlets are safer.

I know of another plane where some builders had installed a front outlet
as
well, and to make it worse, the engine also had a fuel pump. Well, it
didn't
take long for engine outs to occur when tanks were low, and during an
initial steep climb. Needless to say, this was a hard lesson for some.

With the Rebel, you need to also be aware that if you have the tank shut
off
valves up top at the rear of the tanks, instead of the bottom, you can
easily get an air block in the lines when switching tanks, if you run one
tank dry in the air and don't use the correct tank switching procedure.
More
specifically, if you are running on one tank, let it go dry, close it,
then
open the other tank, your engine will quit, guaranteed, every time. I
proved
this myself, on the ground, and it is very repeatable.

The correct procedure is to open the other full side first, and when the
engine is confirmed to keep running OK, then the empty tank can be
closed.
What happens with the incorrect sequence, is that air is sitting in your
lines below the valves, and if you close your empty one, it can not
escape
when the full one is opened.

This is a very important point to understand if you don't want any rude
surprises some day when switching tanks.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:25 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

You would have to stuff the nose VERY hard to unport the fuel fitting
even
low on fuel. Double porting also negates the syphon effect the fuel
line
would have with just the rear port, as when you get low on fuel as it
will
draw air from the front port easier than fuel from the back,
especially
if
you are running a fuel pump. Even the old style of fuel gauge sight
fitting
tee'd into the main outlet stopped the syphon ability of the tank.
Starting
with an empty tank it would take adding 10 gallons of fuel to the
tank....
to get fuel to flow to the carb on FOKM before I changed the site
gauge
set
up to a seperate isolated fitting. After moving it fuel flow became
almost
instant with the first few gallons added to the tank.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----


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Jesse Jenks

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Jesse Jenks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:42 am

Cool!
Thanks Mike.
From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:06:14 -0900

I knew someone would ask about the fuel valves. I'll look it up and get
back to you. I think you'll like them. The valve handle is probably half
the length of the one's supplied by MAM with the valve pivot in the middle
of the handle instead of on the end and provides a nice, neat installation.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 7:05 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank



Thanks Walter and Mike,
Mike, where did you get the valves you mention?
Jesse

From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 18:01:04 -0900

In addition to Bob's reason to retain the fuel shutoff valves in the wing
root I was sure glad to have them when I developed leaks at virtually all
of
my flare fittings under the floor (suspect poor quality flare tool). If
you
want to do any maintenance on the fuel lines it sure is nice to shut off
the
fuel up there. I found some nice bulkhead valves so that the valve is on
the outside of the fuselage with the handle on the inside. I also have
the
Andair four position selector valve on the floor between the seats.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 9:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank


Walter,
I'm planning to use an Andair valve in the floor, and delete the shutoff
valves in the wing root. Do you think the same problem could occur if I
run
a tank dry and immediatly switch to the other one instead of going to
both?
Thanks.
Jesse
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:19:58 -0800

Just thought I would emphasize what Wayne said about the importance of
only
having the rear outlets. It seems that this is a popular misconception
out
there with some homebuilders, not just Murphy planes, where they think
2
outlets are safer.

I know of another plane where some builders had installed a front
outlet
as
well, and to make it worse, the engine also had a fuel pump. Well, it
didn't
take long for engine outs to occur when tanks were low, and during an
initial steep climb. Needless to say, this was a hard lesson for some.

With the Rebel, you need to also be aware that if you have the tank
shut
off
valves up top at the rear of the tanks, instead of the bottom, you can
easily get an air block in the lines when switching tanks, if you run
one
tank dry in the air and don't use the correct tank switching procedure.
More
specifically, if you are running on one tank, let it go dry, close it,
then
open the other tank, your engine will quit, guaranteed, every time. I
proved
this myself, on the ground, and it is very repeatable.

The correct procedure is to open the other full side first, and when
the
engine is confirmed to keep running OK, then the empty tank can be
closed.
What happens with the incorrect sequence, is that air is sitting in
your
lines below the valves, and if you close your empty one, it can not
escape
when the full one is opened.

This is a very important point to understand if you don't want any rude
surprises some day when switching tanks.

Walter

Of
fitting
even
line
it
will
especially
if tank....
gauge
almost

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Mike Kimball

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Mike Kimball » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:42 am

The fuel valves I used were from McMaster Carr, part number 4114T25. Here
is a link to their catalog page.
http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=387

I used valves with 3/8NPT fittings and installed NPT to flare adapters.
Since the 1/4NPT fittings (4114T23) are half the price of the 3/8 fittings I
would recommend ... well, guess.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Kimball
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 10:06 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

I knew someone would ask about the fuel valves. I'll look it up and get
back to you. I think you'll like them. The valve handle is probably half
the length of the one's supplied by MAM with the valve pivot in the middle
of the handle instead of on the end and provides a nice, neat installation.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 7:05 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank



Thanks Walter and Mike,
Mike, where did you get the valves you mention?
Jesse

From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 18:01:04 -0900

In addition to Bob's reason to retain the fuel shutoff valves in the wing
root I was sure glad to have them when I developed leaks at virtually all
of
my flare fittings under the floor (suspect poor quality flare tool). If
you
want to do any maintenance on the fuel lines it sure is nice to shut off
the
fuel up there. I found some nice bulkhead valves so that the valve is on
the outside of the fuselage with the handle on the inside. I also have the
Andair four position selector valve on the floor between the seats.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 9:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank


Walter,
I'm planning to use an Andair valve in the floor, and delete the shutoff
valves in the wing root. Do you think the same problem could occur if I run
a tank dry and immediatly switch to the other one instead of going to both?
Thanks.
Jesse
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:19:58 -0800

Just thought I would emphasize what Wayne said about the importance of
only
having the rear outlets. It seems that this is a popular misconception
out
there with some homebuilders, not just Murphy planes, where they think 2
outlets are safer.

I know of another plane where some builders had installed a front outlet
as
well, and to make it worse, the engine also had a fuel pump. Well, it
didn't
take long for engine outs to occur when tanks were low, and during an
initial steep climb. Needless to say, this was a hard lesson for some.

With the Rebel, you need to also be aware that if you have the tank shut
off
valves up top at the rear of the tanks, instead of the bottom, you can
easily get an air block in the lines when switching tanks, if you run one
tank dry in the air and don't use the correct tank switching procedure.
More
specifically, if you are running on one tank, let it go dry, close it,
then
open the other tank, your engine will quit, guaranteed, every time. I
proved
this myself, on the ground, and it is very repeatable.

The correct procedure is to open the other full side first, and when the
engine is confirmed to keep running OK, then the empty tank can be
closed.
What happens with the incorrect sequence, is that air is sitting in your
lines below the valves, and if you close your empty one, it can not
escape
when the full one is opened.

This is a very important point to understand if you don't want any rude
surprises some day when switching tanks.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:25 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

You would have to stuff the nose VERY hard to unport the fuel fitting
even
low on fuel. Double porting also negates the syphon effect the fuel
line
would have with just the rear port, as when you get low on fuel as it
will
draw air from the front port easier than fuel from the back,
especially
if
you are running a fuel pump. Even the old style of fuel gauge sight
fitting
tee'd into the main outlet stopped the syphon ability of the tank.
Starting
with an empty tank it would take adding 10 gallons of fuel to the
tank....
to get fuel to flow to the carb on FOKM before I changed the site
gauge
set
up to a seperate isolated fitting. After moving it fuel flow became
almost
instant with the first few gallons added to the tank.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----


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_________________________________________________________________
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AwardsR http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007 ... artagline2




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http://www.live.com/?addTemplate=Valent ... MSN30A0701




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Jesse Jenks

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Jesse Jenks » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:42 am

Thanks for the link Mike! Those do look cool.
Jesse
From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 17:45:07 -0900

The fuel valves I used were from McMaster Carr, part number 4114T25. Here
is a link to their catalog page.
http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=387

I used valves with 3/8NPT fittings and installed NPT to flare adapters.
Since the 1/4NPT fittings (4114T23) are half the price of the 3/8 fittings
I
would recommend ... well, guess.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Kimball
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 10:06 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

I knew someone would ask about the fuel valves. I'll look it up and get
back to you. I think you'll like them. The valve handle is probably half
the length of the one's supplied by MAM with the valve pivot in the middle
of the handle instead of on the end and provides a nice, neat installation.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 7:05 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank



Thanks Walter and Mike,
Mike, where did you get the valves you mention?
Jesse

From: Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 18:01:04 -0900

In addition to Bob's reason to retain the fuel shutoff valves in the wing
root I was sure glad to have them when I developed leaks at virtually all
of
my flare fittings under the floor (suspect poor quality flare tool). If
you
want to do any maintenance on the fuel lines it sure is nice to shut off
the
fuel up there. I found some nice bulkhead valves so that the valve is on
the outside of the fuselage with the handle on the inside. I also have
the
Andair four position selector valve on the floor between the seats.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 9:59 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank


Walter,
I'm planning to use an Andair valve in the floor, and delete the shutoff
valves in the wing root. Do you think the same problem could occur if I
run
a tank dry and immediatly switch to the other one instead of going to
both?
Thanks.
Jesse
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:19:58 -0800

Just thought I would emphasize what Wayne said about the importance of
only
having the rear outlets. It seems that this is a popular misconception
out
there with some homebuilders, not just Murphy planes, where they think
2
outlets are safer.

I know of another plane where some builders had installed a front
outlet
as
well, and to make it worse, the engine also had a fuel pump. Well, it
didn't
take long for engine outs to occur when tanks were low, and during an
initial steep climb. Needless to say, this was a hard lesson for some.

With the Rebel, you need to also be aware that if you have the tank
shut
off
valves up top at the rear of the tanks, instead of the bottom, you can
easily get an air block in the lines when switching tanks, if you run
one
tank dry in the air and don't use the correct tank switching procedure.
More
specifically, if you are running on one tank, let it go dry, close it,
then
open the other tank, your engine will quit, guaranteed, every time. I
proved
this myself, on the ground, and it is very repeatable.

The correct procedure is to open the other full side first, and when
the
engine is confirmed to keep running OK, then the empty tank can be
closed.
What happens with the incorrect sequence, is that air is sitting in
your
lines below the valves, and if you close your empty one, it can not
escape
when the full one is opened.

This is a very important point to understand if you don't want any rude
surprises some day when switching tanks.

Walter

Of
fitting
even
line
it
will
especially
if tank....
gauge
almost

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AwardsR http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007 ... artagline2




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Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 pm

Just sounds like two different brands of sealer Rick. Slosh is generally
yellow (dries semi clear), white or red.

----- Original Message -----
From: "rick greenwood" <rgreenwood@hotmail.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 10:20 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank




I've cut 3"x5" hole on top of fuel tanks,0ne side is proseal ,the other
is a light tan colour ,thin surface covering substance.Would this beType A
brushable sealant or slosh coating. Rick 233R



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rick greenwood

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank

Post by rick greenwood » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 pm

I kind of thought so, but wanted to know for sure.Thanks Wayne. Rick
From: oifa@irishfield.on.ca
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 22:48:51 -0500

Just sounds like two different brands of sealer Rick. Slosh is generally
yellow (dries semi clear), white or red.

----- Original Message -----
From: "rick greenwood" <rgreenwood@hotmail.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 10:20 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank




I've cut 3"x5" hole on top of fuel tanks,0ne side is proseal ,the other
is a light tan colour ,thin surface covering substance.Would this beType A
brushable sealant or slosh coating. Rick 233R



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