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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Bungee gear
Message-Id: <E0zaYLr-0003rl-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:45:56 -0500

Tim,

Yes - I love the bungee gear ! Yes, the bolts have bent. This was
NOT a problem, as the penny washers keep everything in place, anyway.
There is a note from MAM advising the use of larger bolts - a GOOD idea.

It is also a good idea to turn some Delrin spindles (lathe) to go
over the bolts - it increases the diameter of the bolt, gives the bungee
an easier curve to slide around, and makes the bolt stronger. The spindle
fills in between the tube & the penny washer, putting the bolt in tension.

Ron Barber came up with a simple gadget for making the bulk bungee
into single rings - this is MUCH easier than trying to stretch it on in
one piece, as per manual !! Or you can buy made-up rings - part # 9044
This is a 9/16" dia. bungee ring with 4.4" diameter. Because this is
not as thick as the supplied bulk cord, you will need 3 rings front &
back on each side. (will try to get a sketch of the 'bungee jig')

Can't help much with the 'new' cable arrangement without re-reading
it (IF i have it !!). The problem with the old one, i believe, was that
it was a little too long, and could get doubled over & KINK - greatly
weakening the cable...
'one continuous loop' sounds like they want it to look like a
large o, with the top & bottom bolts going through the ends, while
it just bypasses the middle bolts. Can anyone else clarify this ?? Please ??

THe bushing set is BRASS, and NOT necessary IF the gear is set up
properly. The idea of the bungees is that they are ONLY to move to
prevent structural damage to the fuselage. The TIRES are the primary
shock absorbers - which is why i like the BIG 800x6's !

The problems start when people rig the bungees TOO SOFT, so
they move over every bump. This WILL cause wear, AND can cause serious
structural damage on a hard landing, because the gear travel limit will
be exceeded, causing loads to pass directly to the fuse !

The safety cable system DOES work !! I sheared the bottom of the
gear tube a few years ago, on No. 001 - it was worn, and only a SINGLE
thickness. Don't worry, this WILL NOT happen on ANY production Rebel -
they are ALL built much more strongly !! In any case, the cable saved
the day - it just took the load, & we taxied in lopsided !!



----------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 03:03 PM 11/2/98 -0800, you wrote:

Bob,

Are you running bungee gear? If so, do you have problems with the bolts
bending?

Also, I received an "AD" from MAM (about 18 mos. back) regarding a new way
to route the safety cable running thru the bungee gear legs. At the risk

of

appearing like I can't follow directions, I can't follow those directions

or

get a mental image of exactly what they are saying about using one
continuous loop. Are you familiar with this?

Finally, there is someone in Canada who makes a steel bushing block for the
tops of the main gear legs, so that the bearing is not steel AN bolt to
aluminum gear leg. Are you familiar with the mod, and if so, would you
recommend it?

Tim C
#438R

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 19:16:31 +1300
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Hi Bob,

You state that the tyres are the primary shock absorbers, I am having some
trouble with my spring gear in that the loads are transferring to the fuse
and causing some panting of the skins and minor smoking of some rivets.

What tyre pressures are you running?

Cheers,

Alister Yeoman yeoman@voyager.co.nz

----------

From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Bungee gear
Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 5:45 PM

Tim,

Yes - I love the bungee gear ! Yes, the bolts have bent. This was
NOT a problem, as the penny washers keep everything in place, anyway.
There is a note from MAM advising the use of larger bolts - a GOOD idea.

It is also a good idea to turn some Delrin spindles (lathe) to go
over the bolts - it increases the diameter of the bolt, gives the bungee
an easier curve to slide around, and makes the bolt stronger. The spindle
fills in between the tube & the penny washer, putting the bolt in

tension.

Ron Barber came up with a simple gadget for making the bulk bungee
into single rings - this is MUCH easier than trying to stretch it on in
one piece, as per manual !! Or you can buy made-up rings - part # 9044
This is a 9/16" dia. bungee ring with 4.4" diameter. Because this is
not as thick as the supplied bulk cord, you will need 3 rings front &
back on each side. (will try to get a sketch of the 'bungee jig')

Can't help much with the 'new' cable arrangement without re-reading
it (IF i have it !!). The problem with the old one, i believe, was that
it was a little too long, and could get doubled over & KINK - greatly
weakening the cable...
'one continuous loop' sounds like they want it to look like a
large o, with the top & bottom bolts going through the ends, while
it just bypasses the middle bolts. Can anyone else clarify this ?? Please

??

THe bushing set is BRASS, and NOT necessary IF the gear is set up
properly. The idea of the bungees is that they are ONLY to move to
prevent structural damage to the fuselage. The TIRES are the primary
shock absorbers - which is why i like the BIG 800x6's !

The problems start when people rig the bungees TOO SOFT, so
they move over every bump. This WILL cause wear, AND can cause serious
structural damage on a hard landing, because the gear travel limit will
be exceeded, causing loads to pass directly to the fuse !

The safety cable system DOES work !! I sheared the bottom of the
gear tube a few years ago, on No. 001 - it was worn, and only a SINGLE
thickness. Don't worry, this WILL NOT happen on ANY production Rebel -
they are ALL built much more strongly !! In any case, the cable saved
the day - it just took the load, & we taxied in lopsided !!



----------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 03:03 PM 11/2/98 -0800, you wrote:

Bob,

Are you running bungee gear? If so, do you have problems with the bolts
bending?

Also, I received an "AD" from MAM (about 18 mos. back) regarding a new

way

to route the safety cable running thru the bungee gear legs. At the

risk of

appearing like I can't follow directions, I can't follow those

directions or

get a mental image of exactly what they are saying about using one
continuous loop. Are you familiar with this?

Finally, there is someone in Canada who makes a steel bushing block for

the

tops of the main gear legs, so that the bearing is not steel AN bolt to
aluminum gear leg. Are you familiar with the mod, and if so, would you
recommend it?

Tim C
#438R

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Message-Id: <E0zauCc-0005az-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:05:51 -0500


I run the fat tires - 8.00 x 600. They aren't very heavy-duty, but
they ARE inexpensive !! :-)

Normal pressure is around 20 lb - but i have run them as low
as 10 lb. The only danger if they're too soft is that they TURN on the
wheel, and pull the valve stem out of the tube !! :-(

Very fancy method - add air, then put a foot on the tire & push
on top - look for a little flattening (1/2" bulge ??) at bottom, and a
little side to side wiggle. Seems to give nice landings that way ....

It's unusual to see problems with the spring with such low time
- how many hours on the Rebel ?? What's 'panting' of skins ????

You might want to re-torque the bolts that hold the spring
gear on - I've heard of several that loosened up in the first 50 hours -
and there were one or 2 that had sheared bolts.

Were the rivets that are smoking dipped in epoxy when installed ??
You <could> paint some epoxy on inside & out now ... might help.

I hate to say this, but "the EARLY" spring gear kits were a little
weak in the floor area. Newer ones have several doublers with 'fingers'
that are supposed to spread the loads much better, preventing the waves
in the floor. It might be possible to add doublers inside or out, even
now. It would depend where the problem is. I'm sure the factory could
help, if you sent photos of the problem spots ... (Hope you can get
someone to scan photos of your Rebel for us - we're all curious !)

.....bobp

Apologies to those who've heard "the Early" too often !!

----------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 07:16 PM 11/3/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

You state that the tyres are the primary shock absorbers, I am having some
trouble with my spring gear in that the loads are transferring to the fuse
and causing some panting of the skins and minor smoking of some rivets.

What tyre pressures are you running?

Cheers,

Alister Yeoman yeoman@voyager.co.nz

----------

From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Bungee gear
Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 5:45 PM

Tim,

Yes - I love the bungee gear ! Yes, the bolts have bent. This was
NOT a problem, as the penny washers keep everything in place, anyway.
There is a note from MAM advising the use of larger bolts - a GOOD idea.

It is also a good idea to turn some Delrin spindles (lathe) to go
over the bolts - it increases the diameter of the bolt, gives the bungee
an easier curve to slide around, and makes the bolt stronger. The spindle
fills in between the tube & the penny washer, putting the bolt in

tension.

Ron Barber came up with a simple gadget for making the bulk bungee
into single rings - this is MUCH easier than trying to stretch it on in
one piece, as per manual !! Or you can buy made-up rings - part # 9044
This is a 9/16" dia. bungee ring with 4.4" diameter. Because this is
not as thick as the supplied bulk cord, you will need 3 rings front &
back on each side. (will try to get a sketch of the 'bungee jig')

Can't help much with the 'new' cable arrangement without re-reading
it (IF i have it !!). The problem with the old one, i believe, was that
it was a little too long, and could get doubled over & KINK - greatly
weakening the cable...
'one continuous loop' sounds like they want it to look like a
large o, with the top & bottom bolts going through the ends, while
it just bypasses the middle bolts. Can anyone else clarify this ?? Please

??

THe bushing set is BRASS, and NOT necessary IF the gear is set up
properly. The idea of the bungees is that they are ONLY to move to
prevent structural damage to the fuselage. The TIRES are the primary
shock absorbers - which is why i like the BIG 800x6's !

The problems start when people rig the bungees TOO SOFT, so
they move over every bump. This WILL cause wear, AND can cause serious
structural damage on a hard landing, because the gear travel limit will
be exceeded, causing loads to pass directly to the fuse !

The safety cable system DOES work !! I sheared the bottom of the
gear tube a few years ago, on No. 001 - it was worn, and only a SINGLE
thickness. Don't worry, this WILL NOT happen on ANY production Rebel -
they are ALL built much more strongly !! In any case, the cable saved
the day - it just took the load, & we taxied in lopsided !!



----------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 03:03 PM 11/2/98 -0800, you wrote:

Bob,

Are you running bungee gear? If so, do you have problems with the bolts
bending?

Also, I received an "AD" from MAM (about 18 mos. back) regarding a new

way

to route the safety cable running thru the bungee gear legs. At the

risk of

appearing like I can't follow directions, I can't follow those

directions or

get a mental image of exactly what they are saying about using one
continuous loop. Are you familiar with this?

Finally, there is someone in Canada who makes a steel bushing block for

the

tops of the main gear legs, so that the bearing is not steel AN bolt to
aluminum gear leg. Are you familiar with the mod, and if so, would you
recommend it?

Tim C
#438R

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Hey Bob!

How early is 'EARLY'? I've got spring gear for number R280 and will be
working
on that part pretty soon.

Dan

Bob Patterson wrote:

.... I hate to say this, but "the EARLY" spring gear kits were a little
weak in the floor area. Newer ones have several doublers with 'fingers'
that are supposed to spread the loads much better, preventing the waves
in the floor. It might be possible to add doublers inside or out, even
now. It would depend where the problem is. I'm sure the factory could
help.... .....bobp

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:42:33 +1300
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Hi again,

Thanks for the info, I was speaking to Grant from Murphy today and he
backed up what you say, he said Darral reckons to run about 12lbs in the
tyres.

I'd come to that conclusion in the last few days and have tried it, it
certainly softens the ride and appears to take some of the loads away from
the fuse.

Panting of the skins is a term used over here to indicate flexing of the
skins in certain situations.

I do have the latter kit with the stronger floor area, the problem is not
in the twisting forces with braking etc. but with the dissipation of the
loads through the fuse resulting from the flexing of the spring gear ( ie
weight bearing loads)

The panting I am getting is just ahead of the front door post,down low just
above where the corner rap meets the side panel, it occurs when the
undercarriage is working. It is causing the 'smoking' of the rivets down
low on the front door post.

It is of some concern, and obviously a fix is required, stronger rivets in
the area concerned would probably do the job, but I do wonder if a doubler
over the area that is 'panting' may be the best long term option,
especially with all the off airfield work that I do.

Murphy have been beating around the bush in regard to a fix for the
problem, but they have said that the front corner raps have been increased
in thickness to 35thou. ( I wonder why!)

Yes, the aircraft has only done 35hrs to date, but I am using the way it
should be used!! It has to hold up thats why I built it!!

And yes, I had to re-torque the under carriage bolts fairly early on, as
they had loosened.

Also remember that if you are fitting an 0-320, or a heavier motor, to do
the floatfix bulletin promulgated by Murphy, I found out the hard way, all
the taxiing over rough ground caused the top of the firewall to flex
creating some cracking of the firewall around the top mounts on either
side, this happened within 20hrs!!!

This all sounds very dramatic, but it isn't really, I just look at these
problems as just part of the shake down period, we'll sort this out and be
off like a rocket!

It is the neatest aircraft to fly, and you can go to the greatest places.
The other day my son and I tossed some camping gear and a rifle in the back
and headed off for the mountains, an hour and twenty later we dropped into
the headwaters of the Wilkins river on to an old deer hunters strip (Alt.
2000ft, 280 metres long and two metres wide!). We were surrounded by 8000ft
peaks.

We had an evening hunt in the most beautiful country possible, slept under
the aircraft, up early and away for another hunt then back for a late
breakfast. Toss the gear in the plane and off home, all in under 24 hrs!
What a way to travel!!

The only problems I am getting with the aircraft is associated with the
rough and undulating terrain that I am operating off, in the air the
aircraft has been faultless, I have full confidence that these issues will
be worked through reasonably quickly.

Cheers

Alister Yeoman




----------

From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 5:05 PM


I run the fat tires - 8.00 x 600. They aren't very heavy-duty, but
they ARE inexpensive !! :-)

Normal pressure is around 20 lb - but i have run them as low
as 10 lb. The only danger if they're too soft is that they TURN on the
wheel, and pull the valve stem out of the tube !! :-(

Very fancy method - add air, then put a foot on the tire & push
on top - look for a little flattening (1/2" bulge ??) at bottom, and a
little side to side wiggle. Seems to give nice landings that way ....

It's unusual to see problems with the spring with such low time
- how many hours on the Rebel ?? What's 'panting' of skins ????

You might want to re-torque the bolts that hold the spring
gear on - I've heard of several that loosened up in the first 50 hours -
and there were one or 2 that had sheared bolts.

Were the rivets that are smoking dipped in epoxy when installed

??

You <could> paint some epoxy on inside & out now ... might help.

I hate to say this, but "the EARLY" spring gear kits were a

little

weak in the floor area. Newer ones have several doublers with 'fingers'
that are supposed to spread the loads much better, preventing the waves
in the floor. It might be possible to add doublers inside or out, even
now. It would depend where the problem is. I'm sure the factory could
help, if you sent photos of the problem spots ... (Hope you can get
someone to scan photos of your Rebel for us - we're all curious !)

.....bobp

Apologies to those who've heard "the Early" too often !!

----------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------

At 07:16 PM 11/3/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

You state that the tyres are the primary shock absorbers, I am having

some

trouble with my spring gear in that the loads are transferring to the

fuse

and causing some panting of the skins and minor smoking of some rivets.

What tyre pressures are you running?

Cheers,

Alister Yeoman yeoman@voyager.co.nz

----------

From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Bungee gear
Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 5:45 PM

Tim,

Yes - I love the bungee gear ! Yes, the bolts have bent. This

was

NOT a problem, as the penny washers keep everything in place, anyway.
There is a note from MAM advising the use of larger bolts - a GOOD

idea.

It is also a good idea to turn some Delrin spindles (lathe) to go
over the bolts - it increases the diameter of the bolt, gives the

bungee

an easier curve to slide around, and makes the bolt stronger. The

spindle

fills in between the tube & the penny washer, putting the bolt in

tension.

Ron Barber came up with a simple gadget for making the bulk

bungee

into single rings - this is MUCH easier than trying to stretch it on

in

one piece, as per manual !! Or you can buy made-up rings - part # 9044
This is a 9/16" dia. bungee ring with 4.4" diameter. Because this is
not as thick as the supplied bulk cord, you will need 3 rings front &
back on each side. (will try to get a sketch of the 'bungee jig')

Can't help much with the 'new' cable arrangement without

re-reading

it (IF i have it !!). The problem with the old one, i believe, was

that

it was a little too long, and could get doubled over & KINK - greatly
weakening the cable...
'one continuous loop' sounds like they want it to look like a
large o, with the top & bottom bolts going through the ends, while
it just bypasses the middle bolts. Can anyone else clarify this ??

Please

??

THe bushing set is BRASS, and NOT necessary IF the gear is set up
properly. The idea of the bungees is that they are ONLY to move to
prevent structural damage to the fuselage. The TIRES are the primary
shock absorbers - which is why i like the BIG 800x6's !

The problems start when people rig the bungees TOO SOFT, so
they move over every bump. This WILL cause wear, AND can cause serious

structural damage on a hard landing, because the gear travel limit

will

be exceeded, causing loads to pass directly to the fuse !

The safety cable system DOES work !! I sheared the bottom of

the

gear tube a few years ago, on No. 001 - it was worn, and only a SINGLE
thickness. Don't worry, this WILL NOT happen on ANY production Rebel -
they are ALL built much more strongly !! In any case, the cable saved
the day - it just took the load, & we taxied in lopsided !!



----------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 03:03 PM 11/2/98 -0800, you wrote:

bolts

new

way

risk of

directions or

for

the

to

you

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Bob

You have me quite concerned!

We have an "EARLY" Elite, #583 (have heard of just a few with lower S/Ns and
the
parts are older than the first production release of the manual) so your
comments about doublers etc. are worrisome.

Are you talking about Rebels or Rebel Elites when you speak of weakness in
the
spring gear support structure? How about factory update pieces? We have
not
heard about the doublers, are they just (plain) Rebel?

As for the gear mounting bolt you mention, that brings out the Mechanical
Engineer in me. I believe it is a single point failure mechanism isn't it?
Are
we sure that at the present size it is large enough? Are the "few" problems
so
far representitive of just a few flying examples or is it a matter of a few
isolated problems in a larger sample of aircraft?

Thanks

Dave Ricker

Bob Patterson wrote:

I run the fat tires - 8.00 x 600. They aren't very heavy-duty, but
they ARE inexpensive !! :-)

Normal pressure is around 20 lb - but i have run them as low
as 10 lb. The only danger if they're too soft is that they TURN on the
wheel, and pull the valve stem out of the tube !! :-(

Very fancy method - add air, then put a foot on the tire & push
on top - look for a little flattening (1/2" bulge ??) at bottom, and a
little side to side wiggle. Seems to give nice landings that way ....

It's unusual to see problems with the spring with such low time
- how many hours on the Rebel ?? What's 'panting' of skins ????

You might want to re-torque the bolts that hold the spring
gear on - I've heard of several that loosened up in the first 50 hours -
and there were one or 2 that had sheared bolts.

Were the rivets that are smoking dipped in epoxy when installed ??
You <could> paint some epoxy on inside & out now ... might help.

I hate to say this, but "the EARLY" spring gear kits were a little
weak in the floor area. Newer ones have several doublers with 'fingers'
that are supposed to spread the loads much better, preventing the waves
in the floor. It might be possible to add doublers inside or out, even
now. It would depend where the problem is. I'm sure the factory could
help, if you sent photos of the problem spots ... (Hope you can get
someone to scan photos of your Rebel for us - we're all curious !)

.....bobp

Apologies to those who've heard "the Early" too often !!

----------------------------orig.-----------------------------------------
At 07:16 PM 11/3/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

You state that the tyres are the primary shock absorbers, I am having

some

trouble with my spring gear in that the loads are transferring to the

fuse

and causing some panting of the skins and minor smoking of some rivets.

What tyre pressures are you running?

Cheers,

Alister Yeoman yeoman@voyager.co.nz

----------

From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Bungee gear
Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 5:45 PM

Tim,

Yes - I love the bungee gear ! Yes, the bolts have bent. This

was

NOT a problem, as the penny washers keep everything in place, anyway.
There is a note from MAM advising the use of larger bolts - a GOOD

idea.

It is also a good idea to turn some Delrin spindles (lathe) to go
over the bolts - it increases the diameter of the bolt, gives the

bungee

an easier curve to slide around, and makes the bolt stronger. The

spindle

fills in between the tube & the penny washer, putting the bolt in

tension.

Ron Barber came up with a simple gadget for making the bulk bungee
into single rings - this is MUCH easier than trying to stretch it on in
one piece, as per manual !! Or you can buy made-up rings - part # 9044
This is a 9/16" dia. bungee ring with 4.4" diameter. Because this is
not as thick as the supplied bulk cord, you will need 3 rings front &
back on each side. (will try to get a sketch of the 'bungee jig')

Can't help much with the 'new' cable arrangement without re-reading
it (IF i have it !!). The problem with the old one, i believe, was that
it was a little too long, and could get doubled over & KINK - greatly
weakening the cable...
'one continuous loop' sounds like they want it to look like a
large o, with the top & bottom bolts going through the ends, while
it just bypasses the middle bolts. Can anyone else clarify this ??

Please

??

THe bushing set is BRASS, and NOT necessary IF the gear is set up
properly. The idea of the bungees is that they are ONLY to move to
prevent structural damage to the fuselage. The TIRES are the primary
shock absorbers - which is why i like the BIG 800x6's !

The problems start when people rig the bungees TOO SOFT, so
they move over every bump. This WILL cause wear, AND can cause serious
structural damage on a hard landing, because the gear travel limit will
be exceeded, causing loads to pass directly to the fuse !

The safety cable system DOES work !! I sheared the bottom of

the

gear tube a few years ago, on No. 001 - it was worn, and only a SINGLE
thickness. Don't worry, this WILL NOT happen on ANY production Rebel -
they are ALL built much more strongly !! In any case, the cable saved
the day - it just took the load, & we taxied in lopsided !!



----------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 03:03 PM 11/2/98 -0800, you wrote:

bolts

way

risk of

directions or

for

the

to

you

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Message-Id: <E0zb4mF-0007m5-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:23:20 -0500


Dave,

You have nothing to worry about with the Elite - "Early" was the first
10 or so Rebels with spring gear - long ago ! All of the doubler mods
were included on the Elite, as they are standard on the Rebel now.

The bolts I was referring to are the bolts that hold the BUNGEES -
not the gear mounting bolts - again not a problem on spring gear.

The bolts that hold the spring gear on (i believe there are 4 of
them ?) are strong enough, PROVIDED they are properly torqued. The only
problem occurred when a builder flew with CONSIDERABLE slack in all of
these bolts. This would cause shear failure on any aircraft...

Ongoing problems with Rebels are pretty minor - we've got about
950 Hr. on one of ours, with NO major problems. Most of the "difficulties"
you are hearing about are routine maintenance issues. The "float fix"
was a problem only discovered this year, and the factory responded
within a few weeks with a solution that could be retrofitted. It is
really more of a problem with the engine mount design (non-MAM) than
the Rebel airframe - the mount SHOULD have a cross brace tube between
the fuse corner mounts.

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 10:03 AM 11/4/98 -0400, you wrote:

Bob

You have me quite concerned!

We have an "EARLY" Elite, #583 (have heard of just a few with lower S/Ns

and the

parts are older than the first production release of the manual) so your
comments about doublers etc. are worrisome.

Are you talking about Rebels or Rebel Elites when you speak of weakness in

the

spring gear support structure? How about factory update pieces? We have

not

heard about the doublers, are they just (plain) Rebel?

As for the gear mounting bolt you mention, that brings out the Mechanical
Engineer in me. I believe it is a single point failure mechanism isn't it?

Are

we sure that at the present size it is large enough? Are the "few"

problems so

far representitive of just a few flying examples or is it a matter of a few
isolated problems in a larger sample of aircraft?

Thanks

Dave Ricker

Bob Patterson wrote:

I run the fat tires - 8.00 x 600. They aren't very heavy-duty, but
they ARE inexpensive !! :-)

Normal pressure is around 20 lb - but i have run them as low
as 10 lb. The only danger if they're too soft is that they TURN on the
wheel, and pull the valve stem out of the tube !! :-(

Very fancy method - add air, then put a foot on the tire & push
on top - look for a little flattening (1/2" bulge ??) at bottom, and a
little side to side wiggle. Seems to give nice landings that way ....

It's unusual to see problems with the spring with such low time
- how many hours on the Rebel ?? What's 'panting' of skins ????

You might want to re-torque the bolts that hold the spring
gear on - I've heard of several that loosened up in the first 50 hours -
and there were one or 2 that had sheared bolts.

Were the rivets that are smoking dipped in epoxy when installed

??

You <could> paint some epoxy on inside & out now ... might help.

I hate to say this, but "the EARLY" spring gear kits were a

little

weak in the floor area. Newer ones have several doublers with 'fingers'
that are supposed to spread the loads much better, preventing the waves
in the floor. It might be possible to add doublers inside or out, even
now. It would depend where the problem is. I'm sure the factory could
help, if you sent photos of the problem spots ... (Hope you can get
someone to scan photos of your Rebel for us - we're all curious !)

.....bobp

Apologies to those who've heard "the Early" too often !!

----------------------------orig.----------------------------------------

-

At 07:16 PM 11/3/98 +1300, you wrote:

Hi Bob,

You state that the tyres are the primary shock absorbers, I am having

some

trouble with my spring gear in that the loads are transferring to the

fuse

and causing some panting of the skins and minor smoking of some rivets.

What tyre pressures are you running?

Cheers,

Alister Yeoman yeoman@voyager.co.nz

----------

was

idea.

bungee

spindle

tension.

bungee

in

re-reading

that

Please

??

will

the

bolts

new

way risk of directions or

for

the

to

you

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Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:22:36 -0400
Message-ID: <36408DD4.4F4C521A@dbis.ns.ca>
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:24:37 -0400
From: David Ricker <ricker@dbis.ns.ca>
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Hi Bob

Good to hear that even "Early" Elites have the reinforced spring gear
mounts.

The bolt I mentioned was the one you referred to below when responding to
Alister
who has the spring gear, not the bungee mounts on which the thread started.

The concern is the tendency to have to re-tighten things after they have had
a
chance to take a set. The question is what has taken a set, the bolt or the
mounting point and why? In fact, the bigger question is whether there is a
good
reason this slacking will not continue.

Regards

Dave R.

Bob Patterson wrote:

Dave,

You have nothing to worry about with the Elite - "Early" was the first
10 or so Rebels with spring gear - long ago ! All of the doubler mods
were included on the Elite, as they are standard on the Rebel now.

The bolts I was referring to are the bolts that hold the BUNGEES -
not the gear mounting bolts - again not a problem on spring gear.

The bolts that hold the spring gear on (i believe there are 4 of
them ?) are strong enough, PROVIDED they are properly torqued. The only
problem occurred when a builder flew with CONSIDERABLE slack in all of
these bolts. This would cause shear failure on any aircraft...

Ongoing problems with Rebels are pretty minor - we've got about
950 Hr. on one of ours, with NO major problems. Most of the "difficulties"
you are hearing about are routine maintenance issues. The "float fix"
was a problem only discovered this year, and the factory responded
within a few weeks with a solution that could be retrofitted. It is
really more of a problem with the engine mount design (non-MAM) than
the Rebel airframe - the mount SHOULD have a cross brace tube between
the fuse corner mounts.

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 10:03 AM 11/4/98 -0400, you wrote:

Bob

You have me quite concerned!

We have an "EARLY" Elite, #583 (have heard of just a few with lower S/Ns

and the

parts are older than the first production release of the manual) so your
comments about doublers etc. are worrisome.

Are you talking about Rebels or Rebel Elites when you speak of weakness

in the

spring gear support structure? How about factory update pieces? We have

not

heard about the doublers, are they just (plain) Rebel?

As for the gear mounting bolt you mention, that brings out the Mechanical
Engineer in me. I believe it is a single point failure mechanism isn't

it?

Are

we sure that at the present size it is large enough? Are the "few"

problems so

far representitive of just a few flying examples or is it a matter of a

few

isolated problems in a larger sample of aircraft?

Thanks

Dave Ricker

Bob Patterson wrote:

I run the fat tires - 8.00 x 600. They aren't very heavy-duty, but
they ARE inexpensive !! :-)

Normal pressure is around 20 lb - but i have run them as low
as 10 lb. The only danger if they're too soft is that they TURN on the
wheel, and pull the valve stem out of the tube !! :-(

Very fancy method - add air, then put a foot on the tire & push
on top - look for a little flattening (1/2" bulge ??) at bottom, and a
little side to side wiggle. Seems to give nice landings that way ....

It's unusual to see problems with the spring with such low time
- how many hours on the Rebel ?? What's 'panting' of skins ????

You might want to re-torque the bolts that hold the spring
gear on - I've heard of several that loosened up in the first 50

hours -

and there were one or 2 that had sheared bolts.

Were the rivets that are smoking dipped in epoxy when installed

??

You <could> paint some epoxy on inside & out now ... might help.

I hate to say this, but "the EARLY" spring gear kits were a

little

weak in the floor area. Newer ones have several doublers with 'fingers'
that are supposed to spread the loads much better, preventing the waves
in the floor. It might be possible to add doublers inside or out, even
now. It would depend where the problem is. I'm sure the factory could
help, if you sent photos of the problem spots ... (Hope you can get
someone to scan photos of your Rebel for us - we're all curious !)

.....bobp

Apologies to those who've heard "the Early" too often !!

----------------------------orig.----------------------------------------

-

At 07:16 PM 11/3/98 +1300, you wrote:

some

fuse

rivets.

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From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
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-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: Bungee gear

You might want to re-torque the bolts that hold the spring
gear on - I've heard of several that loosened up in the first 50 hours -
and there were one or 2 that had sheared bolts.

NO NO NO!! There was a case where one of these bolts failed. Murphy has a
bulletin out saying to check these bolts. If they are loose it is because
they were STRETCHED in a hard landing. If they are loose REPLACE THEM!

Were the rivets that are smoking dipped in epoxy when installed ??
You <could> paint some epoxy on inside & out now ... might help.

Whats a smoking rivet? I saw some smoking rivets on TV once - They were
heating them red hot and putting them in a bridge or something ;>)

Joel






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From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:11:56 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: Alister Yeoman <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 3:46 AM
Subject: Re: Bungee gear

And yes, I had to re-torque the under carriage bolts fairly early on, as
they had loosened.

Alister, do you have access to Murphys technical support area at their web
site? If so, go to the bulletins section and read the first one -
SG-bolt-tests or something. If you don't have access, here is the text from
the bulletin but without the pictures.

Murphy Aircraft mfg. ltd.
Unit 1, 8155 Aitken Road,
Chilliwack, British Columbia, Canada
V2R 4H5
Tel: (604) 792-5855
Fax: (604) 792-7006
Technical Bulletin
Engineering Test Results - Rebel Inboard Spring Gear Attach Bolt
Web Posted : November 20, 1997
Chilliwack, British Columbia
Attention: Rebel Builders
Contact: Technical Services
Murphy Aircraft Mfg. Ltd.
Ph. 604-792-5855
Fax. 604-792-7006
e-mail murtech@murphyair.com
Recently, one of our Rebel customer's spring gear collapsed due to the
failure of the inboard Spring Gear Attach Bolts. The landing gear was tested
by following standard aircraft drop test procedures during the prototype
stage of development. There was no sign of failure of the bolts. Our own
Elite aircraft (heavier than the Rebel) has approximately 300 hours on it
with no signs of failure of the inboard bolts. We also asked all flying
Rebel and Elite customers to check their aircraft and no one reported any
signs of possible bolt failure. We decided to send the failed bolt to an
engineering company for analysis. Following are the conclusions reached in
their final report to us:
"The evidence shows that the bolt failed in service due to a sustained
overload condition....It is possible that the bolt failed as a result of
several applications of heavy loads, however, no cracking took place. If
several heavy loading events did take place, reduction in area by necking
occurred during the early events, and final fracture occurred in a single
final overload event". "It is possible that the fractured bolt became loose
as a result of a prior event. No material faults were found with the failed
bolt."

Figure 1 Overall view of fractured bolt. Note deformation at arrow caused by
bending
Given the above conclusions it is apparent that the design of the gear and
the bolts used to attach it to the fuselage are more than adequate.

Figure 2 Magnified view of "cone" side of fracture
The most important finding resulting from the engineering report is that the
bolts are subject to deformation after a hard landing. It is therefore
extremely important for the customer to check the condition of the spring
gear attach bolts, especially the inboard bolt, after a hard landing for
signs of failure. If a loose bolt is detected after a hard landing DO NOT
retighten the bolt. The bolt has stretched and therefore has a reduced
cross-sectional area. This means that the bolt will not take as much load
before it stretches again. Loose bolts MUST be replaced and torqued to the
proper value.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

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Message-Id: <199811050214.PAA14920@host02.net.voyager.co.nz>
From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:15:05 +1300
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Hi Joel,

Thanks for the input, I have read that bulletin and am very aware of the
possibility of stressing these bolts and by retightening them just masking
a problem.

I have had no heavy landings and I am certain that it is just a little
'settling in', you would quite entitled to ask 'but where?'. I cant answer
that.

These bolts are a critical area and I am going to increase the diameter of
the two outside bolts as they are now doing on the Elite to 3/8". I have
also got an OK from Murhtech to increase the inner bolt diameter to 7/16".
(why not 1/2" that would give almost twice the strength of the 3/8'??-----
Either these bolts hold or they dont!!)

Nothing would be more heart breaking than loosing an undercarriage leg then
'writing off' all your hard work!

Cheers

Alister
----------

From: Joel Jacobs <jj@netexp.net>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 2:11 PM


-----Original Message-----
From: Alister Yeoman <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 3:46 AM
Subject: Re: Bungee gear

And yes, I had to re-torque the under carriage bolts fairly early on, as
they had loosened.

Alister, do you have access to Murphys technical support area at their

web

site? If so, go to the bulletins section and read the first one -
SG-bolt-tests or something. If you don't have access, here is the text

from

the bulletin but without the pictures.

Murphy Aircraft mfg. ltd.
Unit 1, 8155 Aitken Road,
Chilliwack, British Columbia, Canada
V2R 4H5
Tel: (604) 792-5855
Fax: (604) 792-7006
Technical Bulletin
Engineering Test Results - Rebel Inboard Spring Gear Attach Bolt
Web Posted : November 20, 1997
Chilliwack, British Columbia
Attention: Rebel Builders
Contact: Technical Services
Murphy Aircraft Mfg. Ltd.
Ph. 604-792-5855
Fax. 604-792-7006
e-mail murtech@murphyair.com
Recently, one of our Rebel customer's spring gear collapsed due to the
failure of the inboard Spring Gear Attach Bolts. The landing gear was

tested

by following standard aircraft drop test procedures during the prototype
stage of development. There was no sign of failure of the bolts. Our own
Elite aircraft (heavier than the Rebel) has approximately 300 hours on it
with no signs of failure of the inboard bolts. We also asked all flying
Rebel and Elite customers to check their aircraft and no one reported any
signs of possible bolt failure. We decided to send the failed bolt to an
engineering company for analysis. Following are the conclusions reached

in

their final report to us:
"The evidence shows that the bolt failed in service due to a sustained
overload condition....It is possible that the bolt failed as a result of
several applications of heavy loads, however, no cracking took place. If
several heavy loading events did take place, reduction in area by necking
occurred during the early events, and final fracture occurred in a single
final overload event". "It is possible that the fractured bolt became

loose

as a result of a prior event. No material faults were found with the

failed

bolt."

Figure 1 Overall view of fractured bolt. Note deformation at arrow caused

by

bending
Given the above conclusions it is apparent that the design of the gear

and

the bolts used to attach it to the fuselage are more than adequate.

Figure 2 Magnified view of "cone" side of fracture
The most important finding resulting from the engineering report is that

the

bolts are subject to deformation after a hard landing. It is therefore
extremely important for the customer to check the condition of the spring
gear attach bolts, especially the inboard bolt, after a hard landing for
signs of failure. If a loose bolt is detected after a hard landing DO NOT
retighten the bolt. The bolt has stretched and therefore has a reduced
cross-sectional area. This means that the bolt will not take as much load
before it stretches again. Loose bolts MUST be replaced and torqued to

the

proper value.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:09:31 EST
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Subject: Re: Bungee gear
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Again the problem is that although they supply the 'doublers' on all kits
that
they sell now, they have done nothing to inform current builders of these
problems. The only way you find out about most of these issues is by
monitoring the email traffic.

Not the way to go.

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Message-Id: <E0zbHHi-0006gh-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:44:38 -0500


The bolts that failed were stretched because they received EXTRA
loads, BECAUSE they were ALREADY loose. I'm only suggesting a re-tightening
after a few hours of test flying - many elastic stop nuts DO slacken
slightly with heat, vibration, etc.

Of course, if they are slack AGAIN - you're absolutely right !!
- Check them & replace them.

A 'smoking rivet' is a rivet with a black ring around it, and
possibly also a black streak - looks like smoke, but actually, it's
aluminum oxide from small particles of aluminum ground off by a loose
rivet that is 'working' or turning instead of clamping tightly. Look
at any old Cessna that's been used a lot - you'll find some !

It's one of those visible clues to watch for in preflights...

Thanks for the reminder/warning about the bolts !!

.....bobp

----------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 05:40 PM 11/4/98 -0500, you wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: Bungee gear

You might want to re-torque the bolts that hold the spring
gear on - I've heard of several that loosened up in the first 50 hours -
and there were one or 2 that had sheared bolts.

NO NO NO!! There was a case where one of these bolts failed. Murphy has a
bulletin out saying to check these bolts. If they are loose it is because
they were STRETCHED in a hard landing. If they are loose REPLACE THEM!

Were the rivets that are smoking dipped in epoxy when installed ??
You <could> paint some epoxy on inside & out now ... might help.

Whats a smoking rivet? I saw some smoking rivets on TV once - They were
heating them red hot and putting them in a bridge or something ;>)

Joel

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From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Bungee gear
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:25:09 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: Alister Yeoman <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: Bungee gear

Nothing would be more heart breaking than loosing an undercarriage leg then
'writing off' all your hard work!

Cheers

Alister

Excactly. Murphy seems pretty adiment about replacing the bolts in their
bulletin - just wanted to make sure you knew about it.

Joel






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From: NMFN98A@prodigy.com (MR PATRICK S DALY)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:02:59, -0500
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Bungee gear

In monitoring the E mail one can keep up on a lot. But why can`t MAM
do what they should be doing and keep all the builders informed of
all changes and all safety items? After all they are the only ones
that has all the data. I think they owe it to us. Lets keep the
guessing game out of flying! Hope they here from all on this matter.


Don



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