Do you want this big green box to go away? Well here's how...

Click here for full update

Wildcat! photo archives restored.

Click here for full update

Donors can now disable ads.

Click here for instructions

Add yourself to the user map.

Click here for instructions

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Converted from Wildcat! database. (read only)
Locked
Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Sorry to hear this Jerald, but almost mystified how this could happen if all
was prepped, cleaned, etc. Did a bare hand pick up the tank skin? Did you
seal both the tank skin to the spar.. as well as the tank skin to leading
edge skin? When I do them I put the sealer around the permimeter of all the
tank parts (ribs, bulkheads, stringers, etc) and then on the tank skin I
coat the outside face at the main spar so it's ready when I slip it under
the leading edge.

I presume you put the bottom skin down first... and if so did you then get
inside and "butter" the sealer between the tank skin and the spar flange?..
as well as fillet everywhere inside the best you could?

Since you know the bottom skin is an obvious leaker.. and especially with it
leaking out through the main spar... I'd drill off the bottom tank skin....
build the "bath tub" out of the ribs and top skin having it all perfect to
put the bottom skin down again and then take a shot at putting the bottom
skin in place again, making sure that the scotchbrite x hatch comes out at
least 1/2" past the skin to spar flange overlap so it has room to bond well.
This all assuming you noticed no leaks at the top skin!! There's only two
stringers in the bottom... four in the top so that many less rivets doing
the bottom.

My fear if your front spar seam is leaking, which should be the easiest one
to seal up, how well did everything else seal?

I don't even bother with the extra rivet between each, as shown in the
manual, for the main spar and the root and outboard tanks. I just see them
as double the number of rivets to leak through and lack of these "holes"
hasn't caused me any ill effect on pressure tight tanks. (note this is a
Rebel manual thing for sure... I can't remember what the SR spelled out)

Here's a link to my current rebuild of a set of Rebel wings I'm in progress
on. I'll send you some pictures directly of the SR tanks I built in 2001
with less than a single can of PRC per tank.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 2f4b4f80dd

Wayne



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:22 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Probably for Wayne, but anyone please jump in.

I'm building an SR 2500, stock Super Rebel with an extra
fuel bay (four bays total). Yesterday, I tried the balloon test on my
almost completed right wing and couldn't get the balloon to stay inflated.
I pretty well isolated the problem to the bottom corner near the fuel
filler
cap, in the first bay outside the tank (top wing skin is still removed)
near
the spar. I added approximately 10 gal of water to the tank, and yes,
found
water seeping out between the wing/leading edge skin and the bottom spar
flange in the first bay outside the tank. Next, I took my air gun and put
it next to the wing skin and spar flange while looking through the filler
cap with a flashlight. I had bubbles in four locations along the
spar/bottom tank skin mating area in the first bay. The last set of
bubbles
was next to the first rib over, so I have to assume I have a leak in the
next bay over as well. For some reason, I must not have good adherence
between the tank skin and the spar flange. Before assembly, I cleaned and
scotchbrited everything with good cross hatching etc. Perhaps I had an
area
such as the spar flange that never got sufficiently cleaned or something.
Don't know. I trusted the proseal, and there was an approximate 1/8" bead
evenly across the flange where it flowed out during riveting - perhaps too
much squeezed out? I didn't filet it up any more than that. I did cover
the rivet tails.

So, I have the top and bottom tank skins riveted on with a
problem on the bottom skin. Of course, the leading edge is also riveted
on
in the tank area. I have two access panels, already riveted on the bottom
in the 1st and 4th bay. Ted recommended I cut holes in the upper skin,
clean with dremel and roloc pad etc., then add a large filet where I have
the leaks. In looking at it, I don't believe I have sufficient access
between the stringers to get much of a hole and allow room for an overlap
(doubler). Another option might be to enter through the last fuel tank
rib
(up front), then add a doubler to it, but it would be on the outside. I
could probably reach the rivet tails through the fuel filler cap. That
only
works if my problem is confined to the first bay - something I can't
confirm. If I had to remove a skin, would you remove the top or bottom?
What are the risks involved in that? I need good ideas and am going to
ponder this a while before I dig in.

If anyone wants to call and discuss, my phone is
314-791-3536.



Thanks in Advance,

Jerry Folkerts

SR 2500 #093



www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts









-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Amazing set of photos, Wayne. Thanks.

Ron



On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>wrote:
...
...
Here's a link to my current rebuild of a set of Rebel wings I'm in progress
on. I'll send you some pictures directly of the SR tanks I built in 2001
with less than a single can of PRC per tank.


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 2f4b4f80dd

Wayne


-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jerald Folkerts

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Post by Jerald Folkerts » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Wayne,
I can't explain it either. I used good practices in terms of
cleaning, scuffing etc. I did use electrical tape to make nice lines of
proseal and had none past the edge of the spar -- probably need to be a bit
sloppier next time. Mine look very similar to the photos you forwarded
separately. It appears my leak is only near the edge of the flange -- it
does not go all the way through the spar. It goes just under the edge, then
travels laterally and out the tank. The one thing I did not do was to
fillet the edge by the front spar, assuming it was already well sealed --
bad assumption. The root and outboard edges are filleted. When I did my
pressure check, I soaped all the other seams, fittings etc., and observed no
leaks. When I filled the tank with water -- that's when I found the leak,
none anywhere else. Reference the upper skin, I used more proseal than I
did on the bottom, thinking it would be harder to seal. In all, one quart
of proseal, not counting the Type A I used for mating spar surfaces etc.
Yesterday afternoon, I removed the outboard flush mount access panel
(not easy by the way -- needed some luck with a 1/4" sharp wood chisel. I'm
a skinny guy and can get my whole arm in and reach the affected area with no
problem. Before I remove the skin, I believe I'm going to try and vacuum
some proseal into the seam from where it is leaking out, then re-clean,
scuff, and fillet the edge really well. Then, pressure check again.
Hopefully, I can add smiley faces to my balloon. Psychologically, it was a
real down day. You are at the edge of a major milestone, moving the first
wing off the table and then...
I'll let you know how it works out -- will probably give it a couple
of days to dry, then pull some warm air through with a vaccum.

Thanks,
Jerry Folkerts

SR 2500 #093

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 10:05 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Sorry to hear this Jerald, but almost mystified how this could happen if all

was prepped, cleaned, etc. Did a bare hand pick up the tank skin? Did you
seal both the tank skin to the spar.. as well as the tank skin to leading
edge skin? When I do them I put the sealer around the permimeter of all the
tank parts (ribs, bulkheads, stringers, etc) and then on the tank skin I
coat the outside face at the main spar so it's ready when I slip it under
the leading edge.

I presume you put the bottom skin down first... and if so did you then get
inside and "butter" the sealer between the tank skin and the spar flange?..
as well as fillet everywhere inside the best you could?

Since you know the bottom skin is an obvious leaker.. and especially with it

leaking out through the main spar... I'd drill off the bottom tank skin....
build the "bath tub" out of the ribs and top skin having it all perfect to
put the bottom skin down again and then take a shot at putting the bottom
skin in place again, making sure that the scotchbrite x hatch comes out at
least 1/2" past the skin to spar flange overlap so it has room to bond well.

This all assuming you noticed no leaks at the top skin!! There's only two
stringers in the bottom... four in the top so that many less rivets doing
the bottom.

My fear if your front spar seam is leaking, which should be the easiest one
to seal up, how well did everything else seal?

I don't even bother with the extra rivet between each, as shown in the
manual, for the main spar and the root and outboard tanks. I just see them
as double the number of rivets to leak through and lack of these "holes"
hasn't caused me any ill effect on pressure tight tanks. (note this is a
Rebel manual thing for sure... I can't remember what the SR spelled out)

Here's a link to my current rebuild of a set of Rebel wings I'm in progress
on. I'll send you some pictures directly of the SR tanks I built in 2001
with less than a single can of PRC per tank.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 0002254597
941&type=1&l=2f4b4f80dd

Wayne



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:22 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Probably for Wayne, but anyone please jump in.

I'm building an SR 2500, stock Super Rebel with an extra
fuel bay (four bays total). Yesterday, I tried the balloon test on my
almost completed right wing and couldn't get the balloon to stay inflated.
I pretty well isolated the problem to the bottom corner near the fuel
filler
cap, in the first bay outside the tank (top wing skin is still removed)
near
the spar. I added approximately 10 gal of water to the tank, and yes,
found
water seeping out between the wing/leading edge skin and the bottom spar
flange in the first bay outside the tank. Next, I took my air gun and put
it next to the wing skin and spar flange while looking through the filler
cap with a flashlight. I had bubbles in four locations along the
spar/bottom tank skin mating area in the first bay. The last set of
bubbles
was next to the first rib over, so I have to assume I have a leak in the
next bay over as well. For some reason, I must not have good adherence
between the tank skin and the spar flange. Before assembly, I cleaned and
scotchbrited everything with good cross hatching etc. Perhaps I had an
area
such as the spar flange that never got sufficiently cleaned or something.
Don't know. I trusted the proseal, and there was an approximate 1/8" bead
evenly across the flange where it flowed out during riveting - perhaps too
much squeezed out? I didn't filet it up any more than that. I did cover
the rivet tails.

So, I have the top and bottom tank skins riveted on with a
problem on the bottom skin. Of course, the leading edge is also riveted
on
in the tank area. I have two access panels, already riveted on the bottom
in the 1st and 4th bay. Ted recommended I cut holes in the upper skin,
clean with dremel and roloc pad etc., then add a large filet where I have
the leaks. In looking at it, I don't believe I have sufficient access
between the stringers to get much of a hole and allow room for an overlap
(doubler). Another option might be to enter through the last fuel tank
rib
(up front), then add a doubler to it, but it would be on the outside. I
could probably reach the rivet tails through the fuel filler cap. That
only
works if my problem is confined to the first bay - something I can't
confirm. If I had to remove a skin, would you remove the top or bottom?
What are the risks involved in that? I need good ideas and am going to
ponder this a while before I dig in.

If anyone wants to call and discuss, my phone is
314-791-3536.



Thanks in Advance,

Jerry Folkerts

SR 2500 #093



www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts









-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------







-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

"Electrical tape to make nice lines".. hey, we're not making these pretty
inside for the ladies!! ;O)

I like to get things riveted and then lightly spread out onto mating
surfaces so it's nothing but a smear just before it becomes bare aluminum
beside it. Just gives it that "better bite" look although it probably
doesn't make any difference.

If you say you are leaking under.. but not out forward of the main spar
flange.. that one baffles me, unless you trapped a channel of air when
putting down the PRC. I've caught myself doing that a few times when
filleting corners.. go one way with Popsicle stick and then come back and
the PRC almost folds over like you'd fold a piece of paper and traps an air
bubble. Those have to be mashed and redone or they'll come back to haunt
you.

Can't remember if I put it in the earlier posts... but a trouble light is
ESSENTIAL when doing the tanks so you have no shadows etc that will have you
missing spots. I love my portable florescent as it doesn't get very hot
compared to a bare bulb style light.

Wayne



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 7:53 AM
Subject: RE: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Wayne,
I can't explain it either. I used good practices in terms of
cleaning, scuffing etc. I did use electrical tape to make nice lines of
proseal and had none past the edge of the spar -- probably need to be a
bit
sloppier next time. Mine look very similar to the photos you forwarded
separately. It appears my leak is only near the edge of the flange -- it
does not go all the way through the spar. It goes just under the edge,
then
travels laterally and out the tank. The one thing I did not do was to
fillet the edge by the front spar, assuming it was already well sealed --
bad assumption. The root and outboard edges are filleted. When I did my
pressure check, I soaped all the other seams, fittings etc., and observed
no
leaks. When I filled the tank with water -- that's when I found the leak,
none anywhere else. Reference the upper skin, I used more proseal than I
did on the bottom, thinking it would be harder to seal. In all, one quart
of proseal, not counting the Type A I used for mating spar surfaces etc.
Yesterday afternoon, I removed the outboard flush mount access panel
(not easy by the way -- needed some luck with a 1/4" sharp wood chisel.
I'm
a skinny guy and can get my whole arm in and reach the affected area with
no
problem. Before I remove the skin, I believe I'm going to try and vacuum
some proseal into the seam from where it is leaking out, then re-clean,
scuff, and fillet the edge really well. Then, pressure check again.
Hopefully, I can add smiley faces to my balloon. Psychologically, it was
a
real down day. You are at the edge of a major milestone, moving the first
wing off the table and then...
I'll let you know how it works out -- will probably give it a couple
of days to dry, then pull some warm air through with a vaccum.

Thanks,
Jerry Folkerts

SR 2500 #093

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Wayne
G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 10:05 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Sorry to hear this Jerald, but almost mystified how this could happen if
all

was prepped, cleaned, etc. Did a bare hand pick up the tank skin? Did you
seal both the tank skin to the spar.. as well as the tank skin to leading
edge skin? When I do them I put the sealer around the permimeter of all
the
tank parts (ribs, bulkheads, stringers, etc) and then on the tank skin I
coat the outside face at the main spar so it's ready when I slip it under
the leading edge.

I presume you put the bottom skin down first... and if so did you then get
inside and "butter" the sealer between the tank skin and the spar
flange?..
as well as fillet everywhere inside the best you could?

Since you know the bottom skin is an obvious leaker.. and especially with
it

leaking out through the main spar... I'd drill off the bottom tank
skin....
build the "bath tub" out of the ribs and top skin having it all perfect
to
put the bottom skin down again and then take a shot at putting the bottom
skin in place again, making sure that the scotchbrite x hatch comes out at
least 1/2" past the skin to spar flange overlap so it has room to bond
well.

This all assuming you noticed no leaks at the top skin!! There's only two
stringers in the bottom... four in the top so that many less rivets doing
the bottom.

My fear if your front spar seam is leaking, which should be the easiest
one
to seal up, how well did everything else seal?

I don't even bother with the extra rivet between each, as shown in the
manual, for the main spar and the root and outboard tanks. I just see them
as double the number of rivets to leak through and lack of these "holes"
hasn't caused me any ill effect on pressure tight tanks. (note this is a
Rebel manual thing for sure... I can't remember what the SR spelled out)

Here's a link to my current rebuild of a set of Rebel wings I'm in
progress
on. I'll send you some pictures directly of the SR tanks I built in 2001
with less than a single can of PRC per tank.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 0002254597
941&type=1&l=2f4b4f80dd

Wayne



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerald Folkerts" <jfolkerts1@gmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:22 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Probably for Wayne, but anyone please jump in.

I'm building an SR 2500, stock Super Rebel with an extra
fuel bay (four bays total). Yesterday, I tried the balloon test on my
almost completed right wing and couldn't get the balloon to stay
inflated.
I pretty well isolated the problem to the bottom corner near the fuel
filler
cap, in the first bay outside the tank (top wing skin is still removed)
near
the spar. I added approximately 10 gal of water to the tank, and yes,
found
water seeping out between the wing/leading edge skin and the bottom spar
flange in the first bay outside the tank. Next, I took my air gun and
put
it next to the wing skin and spar flange while looking through the filler
cap with a flashlight. I had bubbles in four locations along the
spar/bottom tank skin mating area in the first bay. The last set of
bubbles
was next to the first rib over, so I have to assume I have a leak in the
next bay over as well. For some reason, I must not have good adherence
between the tank skin and the spar flange. Before assembly, I cleaned
and
scotchbrited everything with good cross hatching etc. Perhaps I had an
area
such as the spar flange that never got sufficiently cleaned or something.
Don't know. I trusted the proseal, and there was an approximate 1/8"
bead
evenly across the flange where it flowed out during riveting - perhaps
too
much squeezed out? I didn't filet it up any more than that. I did cover
the rivet tails.

So, I have the top and bottom tank skins riveted on with a
problem on the bottom skin. Of course, the leading edge is also riveted
on
in the tank area. I have two access panels, already riveted on the
bottom
in the 1st and 4th bay. Ted recommended I cut holes in the upper skin,
clean with dremel and roloc pad etc., then add a large filet where I have
the leaks. In looking at it, I don't believe I have sufficient access
between the stringers to get much of a hole and allow room for an overlap
(doubler). Another option might be to enter through the last fuel tank
rib
(up front), then add a doubler to it, but it would be on the outside. I
could probably reach the rivet tails through the fuel filler cap. That
only
works if my problem is confined to the first bay - something I can't
confirm. If I had to remove a skin, would you remove the top or bottom?
What are the risks involved in that? I need good ideas and am going to
ponder this a while before I dig in.

If anyone wants to call and discuss, my phone is
314-791-3536.



Thanks in Advance,

Jerry Folkerts

SR 2500 #093



www.mykitlog.com/jfolkerts









-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------







-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Wayne G. O'Shea

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Post by Wayne G. O'Shea » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Thanks Ron.. now is it the work that's amazing.. or the original condition
that was AMAZING! lol

That's about a fifth of the pics I've actually taken during the rebuild...
that file shows an overview.

The old do it right the first time comes to mind on this one. I can build a
pair of wings for the Rebel in 168 hours.. done, sealed and pressure tested
and ready for wing tips. I'm going thru 90 hours on this rebuild already. I
figure by the time I add another 10 to 12 hours placing / drilling the
bottoms skins.. debur everything.. prep, seal, rivet etc I'll probably be @
around 130 to 140 hours by the the time they are ready to send for paint.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Amazing set of photos, Wayne. Thanks.

Ron



On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea
<oifa@irishfield.on.ca>wrote:
...
...
Here's a link to my current rebuild of a set of Rebel wings I'm in
progress
on. I'll send you some pictures directly of the SR tanks I built in 2001
with less than a single can of PRC per tank.


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 2f4b4f80dd

Wayne


-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Ron Shannon

[rebel-builders] Fuel Tank Woes in Missouri

Post by Ron Shannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:37 pm

Both, of course! The difference is the original "work" is astonishing, to
put it most charitably, whereas your work is excellent, as expected.

Ron


On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>wrote:
Thanks Ron.. now is it the work that's amazing.. or the original condition
that was AMAZING! lol
.....




-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Locked