[rebel-builders] RE: Inspections

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Funny how after 2 emails back and forth.... and me advising the new owner of
this bird about where he stood against MDRA he never replied to me again
when I asked how he got into this situation! Now the question is instead up
on the list..... The only way you can bring a "closed" aircraft into
Canada, from the USA, is with said closed aircraft having more than 100
trouble free flight hours on it...and that took many many years of fighting
to get even.

Also Bruce.. did you not get any of that fax I sent you, that had my fax
machine tied up for an hour, before someone cut it off at the other end?

Anyhow... HISTORY with the MDRA tells us that the "system" will not
accept... nor will they try to inspect a closed up component. We've argued
about use of cameras and such and the REAL fact that just because a skin
gets left off for an easy inspection doesn't guarantee that the rivets, once
installed, will even join wing skin with rib flange (as I have found to be
the case in the past when inspecting FLYING birds.... ie rivets pulled in
air.. sitting beside flanges)!

Note that this isn't just me spewing hot air... I've been asked in the past
to sit at the Transport Canada "puzzle palaces" satellite location (
Buttonville), and discuss and prepare documents to allow professional kit
building. What's allowed.. what's not..... where do we go from here...
etc... I'm not making this shit up. Maybe your inspector out there, that
also builds Rebels, will let one slide and just fill out the pre-close
inspection like it happened... but I wouldn't tell anyone if he does!

Now if MDRA Headquarters is willing to come out of the dark ages and allow
the use of inspection cameras, now that every handyman and contractor has
one in their garage, that would be great. I'm not gonna hold my breath
though, as pin hole cameras have been available for well over a decade (or
two) now and it's been a no go to use them in lieu of a proper pre-close
inspection in the past. I tried my inspection camera out the other day and
with the extension on I have a total reach of 7 feet.. I could get another
extension to go 10 feet or so and that would allow doing a Rebel wing and
then some. I looked all over inside the wings that I have in the shop,
accessed thru the wing tip end, and I can look at every rivet CLEARLY by
simply bending a 90 if need be in the last foot of the wand.

Issue on a Moose... a lot of ribs are SOLID.. with no lightening holes, so
while you could inspect the first 6 feet or so with camera the rest is all
solid main ribs. The leading edge ribs are hollow so they could be done tip
to root.

If W... K... strikes out with getting a green light to proceed with from
MDRA with what he has sitting in a trailer out West... have him ship it
South to Ted Waltman.. then find a USA "owner" to bring it to completion
with Ted's "guidance" and then get 100 hours on it... and then have it flown
back into Canada and W buys it back for a $1... gives MDRA their $1000+ for
import inspection and carry on.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Jackson" <canadjn@hotmail.com>
To: "Rebel Builders" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 12:55 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] RE: Inspections


[quote]
Bruce,
I'm not sure that there is a rule that says you cannot use scopes or
cameras for an inspection. (I have not checked with MDRA) I believe it is
up to the individual inspector to determine if the workmanship and
materials meet the required standard. If there is an inspector who is
comfortable with using cameras you will still need to provide access for
the camera lens. The alternative to cutting access holes would be to
remove enough rivets to allow the inspector to peel back the skins and
conduct the inspection. That might be more work but cause less damage in
the long run as you may have to install a few larger rivets if the holes
are out of spec.
As far as selling it to another country (US or elsewhere) I would assume
it would have to meet the requirements of that country in order to be
completed and registered there.


[quote]From: brucerose@personainternet.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders]
Max flaps
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:51:19 -0330

Fellow Aircraft owners and builders: Here is a bit of recent information.
A
person in the local area (on the rock) purchased a moose kit from
somewhere
in Alaska All of the components are closed up and finished. The builder
had
died and his wife got around to selling the project. Now that it is in
Canada and needs to be completed I understand that the components have to
be
made ready for a precover inspection by a MDRA inspector. That means that
all of the components that are closed up have to be opened for a visual
inspection. That process will cause a lot of damage by drilling out one
side
of each of the control surfaces, wings, ailerons, fuselage floor etc.
The inspection process does not allow cameras or scopes. What is the
difference between the US inspection system and the Canadian system. Has
anyone run across this before. What would happen if a person sold a
unfinished kit built in Canada to be completed in the US. Don`t blame
MDRA
Transport Canada Makes the rules.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 12:59 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max
flaps

Ben, yes I have VGs now on wing and tail, and it did help a LOT. I can
actually come into the flare at 40-45kts and not splat onto the ground,
whereas before VGs I had to add power, now I can just pull back on the
stick. Big tires are next, as you say that will yield a higher incidence
angle and hopefully slower/shorter landings and takeoffs. The airplane is
controllable to a much higher angle than I can currently achieve due to
the
landing gear, and in my opinion that is wasted angle of attack.
Maximizing
the available flap has to be part of the equation though.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Ben Ransom" <bransom@ucdavis.edu>
To: "rebel-builders@dcsol.com" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Thu, Jan 12, 2012 10:24 pm


Jesse, I can't recall ...do you have VGs on your wing and/or anywhere
else?
I wonder about getting it slower with VGs on both the wing and under
tail,
Fife tips, and maybe also with longer main gear (or bigger tires) to not
have the tail hit too early.

Seems like all that should do the trick, and especially if not too heavy.

Dang those tricked out cubs landing in the 20s (with power)!
-Ben



On 1/11/12 1:16 PM, "jessejenks72@gmail.com" <jessejenks72@gmail.com>
wrote:

[quote]I can already! But only with power. I can land power off at about 45 kts
over the
fence. I want to get that down to 40.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "karl" <khipp@99victor.com>
To:
Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2012 12:25 pm


I never use FULL flaps as it is because the controls get too heavy.
I cannot imagine another notch.

Add VG's they will lower your stall 8mph--If thats not enough add some
Zenair slats. You should be able to fly around then at 30 mph.

Karl Hipp





On 1/11/2012 12:53 PM, Ken wrote:
[quote]I would not want to mess with MAM's 18
degrees max warning. I'm finding that the only time max flaperon makes
much difference is hot heavy takeoffs from water (pulling the nose
higher increases float drag when you are on the step). That is the
only
time I would consider using it even if I had more flaperon available.
On
land I've found that the difference between one notch and 3 notches
(18
degrees) of flaperon is not nearly as significant to takeoff, obstable
clearance, and landing distance, as I once thought. Of course I do
like
to sideslip :) Other Rebels may be different.

Besides - is there anyone here who has NEVER oversped a flap?

Ken

On 11/01/2012 1:02 PM, Walter Klatt wrote:
[quote]I don

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Just want to clarify that I wasn't alleging / insinuating that an inspector
on the Rock would turn a blind eye... ...just that he has Murphy experience
himself and may see fit to pass a pre-close inspection on a Moose based on
his knowledge and the use of a camera (on the qt).

Difference between Canada and USA... we need at minimum two inspections..
pre-close and final, and usually end up with three.. pre-close, pre-paint
and final. In the USA you get it done and have it ready to taxi and you get
a DAR ( or wait for the FAA) and they do a final inspection and off you go.
This is the main reason that we had to fight, for over a decade, to be
allowed to import a USA homebuilt into Canada...when all along they could go
the other way across the border. TC finally gave in and settled that it must
have 100 hours of flight time on it to do so..... figuring it should have
had a inflight by then, if it was going to.

Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] RE: Inspections


[quote]Funny how after 2 emails back and forth.... and me advising the new owner
of
this bird about where he stood against MDRA he never replied to me again
when I asked how he got into this situation! Now the question is instead
up
on the list..... The only way you can bring a "closed" aircraft into
Canada, from the USA, is with said closed aircraft having more than 100
trouble free flight hours on it...and that took many many years of
fighting
to get even.

Also Bruce.. did you not get any of that fax I sent you, that had my fax
machine tied up for an hour, before someone cut it off at the other end?

Anyhow... HISTORY with the MDRA tells us that the "system" will not
accept... nor will they try to inspect a closed up component. We've argued
about use of cameras and such and the REAL fact that just because a skin
gets left off for an easy inspection doesn't guarantee that the rivets,
once
installed, will even join wing skin with rib flange (as I have found to be
the case in the past when inspecting FLYING birds.... ie rivets pulled in
air.. sitting beside flanges)!

Note that this isn't just me spewing hot air... I've been asked in the
past
to sit at the Transport Canada "puzzle palaces" satellite location (
Buttonville), and discuss and prepare documents to allow professional kit
building. What's allowed.. what's not..... where do we go from here...
etc... I'm not making this shit up. Maybe your inspector out there, that
also builds Rebels, will let one slide and just fill out the pre-close
inspection like it happened... but I wouldn't tell anyone if he does!

Now if MDRA Headquarters is willing to come out of the dark ages and allow
the use of inspection cameras, now that every handyman and contractor has
one in their garage, that would be great. I'm not gonna hold my breath
though, as pin hole cameras have been available for well over a decade (or
two) now and it's been a no go to use them in lieu of a proper pre-close
inspection in the past. I tried my inspection camera out the other day and
with the extension on I have a total reach of 7 feet.. I could get another
extension to go 10 feet or so and that would allow doing a Rebel wing and
then some. I looked all over inside the wings that I have in the shop,
accessed thru the wing tip end, and I can look at every rivet CLEARLY by
simply bending a 90 if need be in the last foot of the wand.

Issue on a Moose... a lot of ribs are SOLID.. with no lightening holes, so
while you could inspect the first 6 feet or so with camera the rest is all
solid main ribs. The leading edge ribs are hollow so they could be done
tip
to root.

If W... K... strikes out with getting a green light to proceed with from
MDRA with what he has sitting in a trailer out West... have him ship it
South to Ted Waltman.. then find a USA "owner" to bring it to completion
with Ted's "guidance" and then get 100 hours on it... and then have it
flown
back into Canada and W buys it back for a $1... gives MDRA their $1000+
for
import inspection and carry on.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Jackson" <canadjn@hotmail.com>
To: "Rebel Builders" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 12:55 PM
Subject: [rebel-builders] RE: Inspections


[quote]
Bruce,
I'm not sure that there is a rule that says you cannot use scopes or
cameras for an inspection. (I have not checked with MDRA) I believe it
is
up to the individual inspector to determine if the workmanship and
materials meet the required standard. If there is an inspector who is
comfortable with using cameras you will still need to provide access for
the camera lens. The alternative to cutting access holes would be to
remove enough rivets to allow the inspector to peel back the skins and
conduct the inspection. That might be more work but cause less damage in
the long run as you may have to install a few larger rivets if the holes
are out of spec.
As far as selling it to another country (US or elsewhere) I would assume
it would have to meet the requirements of that country in order to be
completed and registered there.


[quote]From: brucerose@personainternet.com
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders]
Max flaps
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:51:19 -0330

Fellow Aircraft owners and builders: Here is a bit of recent
information.
A
person in the local area (on the rock) purchased a moose kit from
somewhere
in Alaska All of the components are closed up and finished. The builder
had
died and his wife got around to selling the project. Now that it is in
Canada and needs to be completed I understand that the components have
to
be
made ready for a precover inspection by a MDRA inspector. That means
that
all of the components that are closed up have to be opened for a visual
inspection. That process will cause a lot of damage by drilling out one
side
of each of the control surfaces, wings, ailerons, fuselage floor etc.
The inspection process does not allow cameras or scopes. What is the
difference between the US inspection system and the Canadian system. Has
anyone run across this before. What would happen if a person sold a
unfinished kit built in Canada to be completed in the US. Don`t blame
MDRA
Transport Canada Makes the rules.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: jessejenks72@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 12:59 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max
flaps

Ben, yes I have VGs now on wing and tail, and it did help a LOT. I can
actually come into the flare at 40-45kts and not splat onto the ground,
whereas before VGs I had to add power, now I can just pull back on the
stick. Big tires are next, as you say that will yield a higher incidence
angle and hopefully slower/shorter landings and takeoffs. The airplane
is
controllable to a much higher angle than I can currently achieve due to
the
landing gear, and in my opinion that is wasted angle of attack.
Maximizing
the available flap has to be part of the equation though.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "Ben Ransom" <bransom@ucdavis.edu>
To: "rebel-builders@dcsol.com" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: [rebel-builders] Re: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Thu, Jan 12, 2012 10:24 pm


Jesse, I can't recall ...do you have VGs on your wing and/or anywhere
else?
I wonder about getting it slower with VGs on both the wing and under
tail,
Fife tips, and maybe also with longer main gear (or bigger tires) to not
have the tail hit too early.

Seems like all that should do the trick, and especially if not too
heavy.

Dang those tricked out cubs landing in the 20s (with power)!
-Ben



On 1/11/12 1:16 PM, "jessejenks72@gmail.com" <jessejenks72@gmail.com>
wrote:

[quote]I can already! But only with power. I can land power off at about 45
kts
over the
fence. I want to get that down to 40.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4GLTE smartphone

----- Reply message -----
From: "karl" <khipp@99victor.com>
To:
Subject: [rebel-builders] Max flaps
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2012 12:25 pm


I never use FULL flaps as it is because the controls get too heavy.
I cannot imagine another notch.

Add VG's they will lower your stall 8mph--If thats not enough add some
Zenair slats. You should be able to fly around then at 30 mph.

Karl Hipp





On 1/11/2012 12:53 PM, Ken wrote:
[quote]I would not want to mess with MAM's 18
degrees max warning. I'm finding that the only time max flaperon
makes
much difference is hot heavy takeoffs from water (pulling the nose
higher increases float drag when you are on the step). That is the
only
time I would consider using it even if I had more flaperon available.
On
land I've found that the difference between one notch and 3 notches
(18
degrees) of flaperon is not nearly as significant to takeoff,
obstable
clearance, and landing distance, as I once thought. Of course I do
like
to sideslip :) Other Rebels may be different.

Besides - is there anyone here who has NEVER oversped a flap?

Ken

On 11/01/2012 1:02 PM, Walter Klatt wrote:
[quote]I don