[rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

[Jeff Micheal]

Ron, Put in bottom tank access opening. Use the same cover as the moose
wing. The leak that needs to be fixed will be in the upper part of the
tank. Also if you go the route of removing top tank skin, can you be 100%
sure it will be sealed on install.
On 2012-01-06 12:07 AM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

I've previously reported problems with leaks in 254R's tanks, including
numerous attempts to repair from the outside with suction, etc., all to no
avail. The time for surgery has come, before painting.

I was planning to cut a football-sized access hole in the bottom of each
bay and try to clean and re-coat everything inside with Pro-Seal through
those holes, as Craig and others have done. The cleaning in particular has
me a little bamboozled -- these tanks have held fuel for 17 months, or at
least held most of it. However, after Wayne's Polygone revelations,
removing the existing Pro-Seal entirely seems like it may be a realistic
option. So... I'm reconsidering removing the top skin instead, to clean
down to bare metal and re-do the whole thing, with better access and vision
than I could ever have through bottom access holes.

The question now: how hard is it to remove the top skin -- without mangling
it? This probably breaks down to A) potential difficulties removing rivets
that are smothered in Pro-Seal on the inside and B) dealing with skin
adhesion from the existing Pro-Seal.

As for rivet removal, presumably all that's needed at first is to liberate
the skin. The rivet tails can be wiggled out later as inside Pro-Seal comes
off and, if a few 5/32 rivets are needed to button up, it wouldn't be the
first time. But it seems that to open things up enough to pull the top skin
out, I'd have to also take out a few rivets outside the tank perimeter, and
leave those tails rattling around in the wing, etc. Regarding
sealant-to-skin adhesion, in the recent Polygone thread, Wayne was
encouraging about breaking the grip of the Pro-Seal by "slicing" the skin
off but... I have doubts.

Given the virtues of Polygone, I think I'd rather remove all the Pro-Seal
and re-seal the whole thing starting from clean, well-scuffed metal, with
good access and vision, by pulling the top skin. Comments, tips, and
appropriate incantations would be appreciated.

Ron




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[Ken]

Hi Ron

I'd cut a lot of access holes before removing a tank skin but since you
asked here are two (penny) thoughts for you:

I went up through the BOTTOM with an oval hole to do the brushable
proseal overcoat before fuel was ever in the tank and before riveting
the baffles. Most leaks are at the top skin as you know since we have
good access to both sides of the bottom during the build. The access
hole is not obvious since I used a doubler and kept the access plate
flush with the skin. Looks good in fact. All the big iron has similar
(man size) access plates in their tanks ;)

I recently had to replace a 40 thou section of damaged float hull. It
was a challenge to remove the skin without doing further damage until I
used a plasma cutter. (down to $300. now so someone nearby may have one)
OK now that you are thinking that I'm still "eggnogged" - I cut out the
sections to be removed (less than a minutes work) leaving about a one
inch wide strip at the rivet lines so as not to damage the underlying
structure. It was then possible to roll up the strips similar to opening
a can of sardines. Now it was sikkaflex not proseal but sikkaflex can be
similarly stubborn stuff. I might be tempted to try the same thing on a
tank IF WAS ADEQUATELY TRULY PURGED OF GAS FUMES. (Check for paid up
insurance first perhaps) Worked like a charm on the thick chines and
keels. Maybe not as well on 20 thou ribs but you can always replace the
rib flanges if necessary regardless of the skin removal method. OK maybe
I'd try harder to do this with hand shears
on a fuel tank, but you get the idea.

Ken
(more eggnog please)

On 06/01/2012 3:02 AM, Ron Shannon wrote:

I've previously reported problems with leaks in 254R's tanks, including
numerous attempts to repair from the outside with suction, etc., all to no
avail. The time for surgery has come, before painting.

I was planning to cut a football-sized access hole in the bottom of each
bay and try to clean and re-coat everything inside with Pro-Seal through
those holes, as Craig and others have done. The cleaning in particular has
me a little bamboozled -- these tanks have held fuel for 17 months, or at
least held most of it. However, after Wayne's Polygone revelations,
removing the existing Pro-Seal entirely seems like it may be a realistic
option. So... I'm reconsidering removing the top skin instead, to clean
down to bare metal and re-do the whole thing, with better access and vision
than I could ever have through bottom access holes.

The question now: how hard is it to remove the top skin -- without mangling
it? This probably breaks down to A) potential difficulties removing rivets
that are smothered in Pro-Seal on the inside and B) dealing with skin
adhesion from the existing Pro-Seal.

As for rivet removal, presumably all that's needed at first is to liberate
the skin. The rivet tails can be wiggled out later as inside Pro-Seal comes
off and, if a few 5/32 rivets are needed to button up, it wouldn't be the
first time. But it seems that to open things up enough to pull the top skin
out, I'd have to also take out a few rivets outside the tank perimeter, and
leave those tails rattling around in the wing, etc. Regarding
sealant-to-skin adhesion, in the recent Polygone thread, Wayne was
encouraging about breaking the grip of the Pro-Seal by "slicing" the skin
off but... I have doubts.

Given the virtues of Polygone, I think I'd rather remove all the Pro-Seal
and re-seal the whole thing starting from clean, well-scuffed metal, with
good access and vision, by pulling the top skin. Comments, tips, and
appropriate incantations would be appreciated.

Ron

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[Ted Waltman]

Jeff,

Did you miss my return question to you re SR to Moose upgrade that I posted
to the list? I can repost it if so.

Thank you,

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Micheal
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 6:57 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

Ron, Put in bottom tank access opening. Use the same cover as the moose
wing. The leak that needs to be fixed will be in the upper part of the tank.
Also if you go the route of removing top tank skin, can you be 100% sure it
will be sealed on install.
On 2012-01-06 12:07 AM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

I've previously reported problems with leaks in 254R's tanks,
including numerous attempts to repair from the outside with suction,
etc., all to no avail. The time for surgery has come, before painting.

I was planning to cut a football-sized access hole in the bottom of
each bay and try to clean and re-coat everything inside with Pro-Seal
through those holes, as Craig and others have done. The cleaning in
particular has me a little bamboozled -- these tanks have held fuel
for 17 months, or at least held most of it. However, after Wayne's
Polygone revelations, removing the existing Pro-Seal entirely seems
like it may be a realistic option. So... I'm reconsidering removing
the top skin instead, to clean down to bare metal and re-do the whole
thing, with better access and vision than I could ever have through bottom

access holes.

The question now: how hard is it to remove the top skin -- without
mangling it? This probably breaks down to A) potential difficulties
removing rivets that are smothered in Pro-Seal on the inside and B)
dealing with skin adhesion from the existing Pro-Seal.

As for rivet removal, presumably all that's needed at first is to
liberate the skin. The rivet tails can be wiggled out later as inside
Pro-Seal comes off and, if a few 5/32 rivets are needed to button up,
it wouldn't be the first time. But it seems that to open things up
enough to pull the top skin out, I'd have to also take out a few
rivets outside the tank perimeter, and leave those tails rattling
around in the wing, etc. Regarding sealant-to-skin adhesion, in the
recent Polygone thread, Wayne was encouraging about breaking the grip
of the Pro-Seal by "slicing" the skin off but... I have doubts.

Given the virtues of Polygone, I think I'd rather remove all the
Pro-Seal and re-seal the whole thing starting from clean, well-scuffed
metal, with good access and vision, by pulling the top skin. Comments,
tips, and appropriate incantations would be appreciated.

Ron




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[Walter Klatt]

Ron, I would go for the bottom hole first, not much to lose if it doesn't
work. Like everyone says, problem is mostly likely at the top. And after
ripping it off, might have trouble sealing it again the 2nd time around.
Then you would really be bummed...

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Micheal
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 5:57 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

Ron, Put in bottom tank access opening. Use the same cover as the moose
wing. The leak that needs to be fixed will be in the upper part of the tank.
Also if you go the route of removing top tank skin, can you be 100% sure it
will be sealed on install.
On 2012-01-06 12:07 AM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

I've previously reported problems with leaks in 254R's tanks,
including numerous attempts to repair from the outside with suction,
etc., all to no avail. The time for surgery has come, before painting.

I was planning to cut a football-sized access hole in the bottom of
each bay and try to clean and re-coat everything inside with Pro-Seal
through those holes, as Craig and others have done. The cleaning in
particular has me a little bamboozled -- these tanks have held fuel
for 17 months, or at least held most of it. However, after Wayne's
Polygone revelations, removing the existing Pro-Seal entirely seems
like it may be a realistic option. So... I'm reconsidering removing
the top skin instead, to clean down to bare metal and re-do the whole
thing, with better access and vision than I could ever have through bottom

access holes.

The question now: how hard is it to remove the top skin -- without
mangling it? This probably breaks down to A) potential difficulties
removing rivets that are smothered in Pro-Seal on the inside and B)
dealing with skin adhesion from the existing Pro-Seal.

As for rivet removal, presumably all that's needed at first is to
liberate the skin. The rivet tails can be wiggled out later as inside
Pro-Seal comes off and, if a few 5/32 rivets are needed to button up,
it wouldn't be the first time. But it seems that to open things up
enough to pull the top skin out, I'd have to also take out a few
rivets outside the tank perimeter, and leave those tails rattling
around in the wing, etc. Regarding sealant-to-skin adhesion, in the
recent Polygone thread, Wayne was encouraging about breaking the grip
of the Pro-Seal by "slicing" the skin off but... I have doubts.

Given the virtues of Polygone, I think I'd rather remove all the
Pro-Seal and re-seal the whole thing starting from clean, well-scuffed
metal, with good access and vision, by pulling the top skin. Comments,
tips, and appropriate incantations would be appreciated.

Ron




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[Jeff Micheal]

Sorry Ted.... didn't see it or just missed it.
On 2012-01-06 6:25 AM, "Ted Waltman" <ted@vafm.org> wrote:

Jeff,

Did you miss my return question to you re SR to Moose upgrade that I posted
to the list? I can repost it if so.

Thank you,

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Micheal
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 6:57 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] top tank skin removal

Ron, Put in bottom tank access opening. Use the same cover as the moose
wing. The leak that needs to be fixed will be in the upper part of the
tank.
Also if you go the route of removing top tank skin, can you be 100% sure it
will be sealed on install.
On 2012-01-06 12:07 AM, "Ron Shannon" <rshannon@cruzcom.com> wrote:

I've previously reported problems with leaks in 254R's tanks,
including numerous attempts to repair from the outside with suction,
etc., all to no avail. The time for surgery has come, before painting.

I was planning to cut a football-sized access hole in the bottom of
each bay and try to clean and re-coat everything inside with Pro-Seal
through those holes, as Craig and others have done. The cleaning in
particular has me a little bamboozled -- these tanks have held fuel
for 17 months, or at least held most of it. However, after Wayne's
Polygone revelations, removing the existing Pro-Seal entirely seems
like it may be a realistic option. So... I'm reconsidering removing
the top skin instead, to clean down to bare metal and re-do the whole
thing, with better access and vision than I could ever have through

bottom
access holes.

The question now: how hard is it to remove the top skin -- without
mangling it? This probably breaks down to A) potential difficulties
removing rivets that are smothered in Pro-Seal on the inside and B)
dealing with skin adhesion from the existing Pro-Seal.

As for rivet removal, presumably all that's needed at first is to
liberate the skin. The rivet tails can be wiggled out later as inside
Pro-Seal comes off and, if a few 5/32 rivets are needed to button up,
it wouldn't be the first time. But it seems that to open things up
enough to pull the top skin out, I'd have to also take out a few
rivets outside the tank perimeter, and leave those tails rattling
around in the wing, etc. Regarding sealant-to-skin adhesion, in the
recent Polygone thread, Wayne was encouraging about breaking the grip
of the Pro-Seal by "slicing" the skin off but... I have doubts.

Given the virtues of Polygone, I think I'd rather remove all the
Pro-Seal and re-seal the whole thing starting from clean, well-scuffed
metal, with good access and vision, by pulling the top skin. Comments,
tips, and appropriate incantations would be appreciated.

Ron




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[Bob Palmer]

I would suggest making a jig and using a router to cut the holes in the
bottom skin. It just sounds safer...


On 1/6/2012 6:17 AM, Ken wrote:

Hi Ron

I'd cut a lot of access holes before removing a tank skin but since you
asked here are two (penny) thoughts for you:

I went up through the BOTTOM with an oval hole to do the brushable
proseal overcoat before fuel was ever in the tank and before riveting
the baffles. Most leaks are at the top skin as you know since we have
good access to both sides of the bottom during the build. The access
hole is not obvious since I used a doubler and kept the access plate
flush with the skin. Looks good in fact. All the big iron has similar
(man size) access plates in their tanks ;)

I recently had to replace a 40 thou section of damaged float hull. It
was a challenge to remove the skin without doing further damage until I
used a plasma cutter. (down to $300. now so someone nearby may have one)
OK now that you are thinking that I'm still "eggnogged" - I cut out the
sections to be removed (less than a minutes work) leaving about a one
inch wide strip at the rivet lines so as not to damage the underlying
structure. It was then possible to roll up the strips similar to opening
a can of sardines. Now it was sikkaflex not proseal but sikkaflex can be
similarly stubborn stuff. I might be tempted to try the same thing on a
tank IF WAS ADEQUATELY TRULY PURGED OF GAS FUMES. (Check for paid up
insurance first perhaps) Worked like a charm on the thick chines and
keels. Maybe not as well on 20 thou ribs but you can always replace the
rib flanges if necessary regardless of the skin removal method. OK maybe
I'd try harder to do this with hand shears
on a fuel tank, but you get the idea.

Ken
(more eggnog please)

On 06/01/2012 3:02 AM, Ron Shannon wrote:

I've previously reported problems with leaks in 254R's tanks, including
numerous attempts to repair from the outside with suction, etc., all to no
avail. The time for surgery has come, before painting.

I was planning to cut a football-sized access hole in the bottom of each
bay and try to clean and re-coat everything inside with Pro-Seal through
those holes, as Craig and others have done. The cleaning in particular has
me a little bamboozled -- these tanks have held fuel for 17 months, or at
least held most of it. However, after Wayne's Polygone revelations,
removing the existing Pro-Seal entirely seems like it may be a realistic
option. So... I'm reconsidering removing the top skin instead, to clean
down to bare metal and re-do the whole thing, with better access and vision
than I could ever have through bottom access holes.

The question now: how hard is it to remove the top skin -- without mangling
it? This probably breaks down to A) potential difficulties removing rivets
that are smothered in Pro-Seal on the inside and B) dealing with skin
adhesion from the existing Pro-Seal.

As for rivet removal, presumably all that's needed at first is to liberate
the skin. The rivet tails can be wiggled out later as inside Pro-Seal comes
off and, if a few 5/32 rivets are needed to button up, it wouldn't be the
first time. But it seems that to open things up enough to pull the top skin
out, I'd have to also take out a few rivets outside the tank perimeter, and
leave those tails rattling around in the wing, etc. Regarding
sealant-to-skin adhesion, in the recent Polygone thread, Wayne was
encouraging about breaking the grip of the Pro-Seal by "slicing" the skin
off but... I have doubts.

Given the virtues of Polygone, I think I'd rather remove all the Pro-Seal
and re-seal the whole thing starting from clean, well-scuffed metal, with
good access and vision, by pulling the top skin. Comments, tips, and
appropriate incantations would be appreciated.

Ron

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